From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #314 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 4 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 314 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: sigs the_dojang: SunMooKwan the_dojang: Fw: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #313 the_dojang: Introduction and comments the_dojang: Hoi Jeon Moo Sool Championships the_dojang: Honoring BB's the_dojang: BB test traditions the_dojang: Association vs Federation the_dojang: Tribal Martial Arts the_dojang: tribal arts, worldwide [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 960 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 19:48:55 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: sigs In a message dated 5/4/00 12:11:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I believe Master Silz is referring to the rather verbose tag line you employ that has the url's of your home page, a martial arts supply house, and a get paid to surf site. I also find it slightly annoying to see that kind of "stuff" on every post you make. It also somewhat impolite to include html code when sending mail to recipients who may not have html enabled e-mail clients. >> well sam, my apologies to everyone who doesnt have html enabled. i know i dont either, but it's always shown up as just links to me and not the mess of which you and david speak. perhaps it's an aol thing on my end. i made the mistake of assuming that it gets through to you the same way it gets through to me...a non html reader. sorry folks ------------------------------ From: "StarrAvis" Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 20:01:46 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: SunMooKwan From what i've heard, from other GM in HKD, SMK was not a legitimate kwan in Korea and it is very probable that it was concocted by the two korean brothers and dave weatherly. Even the great GM jae sun ji is not known outside the SMK. I was involved with the SMK in the mid '80s and most of what is taught as HKD is actually KSW but toned down a bit as far as the flowery flowing moves go. , i will say this about dave weatherly and what he taught: he was good and his stuff worked when he or one of his higher ranked black belts used it. I have no qualms with the SMK, other than soaking up the BS when i first met weatherly and then finding out that the GM was a figment of someone's imagination. george http://www.martialarts2000.com ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 19:03:56 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Fw: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #313 >Do you recall?.?.? Given Dr. Kimm's 8th Dan in KSW, was this mostly a >restatement of the KSW's history? Are any actual historical references >cited about these tribal arts and of what they were comprised? > Ray: This actually pre-dated Dr. Kimm's involvement in KSW, and like all of his other historical works, it was done without attempting to favor one person or organization's viewpoint. I have the book in front of me, and the "tribal period" includes the time from 2333 BC to 57 BC and gives a highly detailed look into Korean life at that time including weapons such as the stone knife and techniques like "stone throwing techniques" as well as the design and arrangement of groups of villages, and the various warrior codes of the time. This book also traces the lineage of many Korean masters in the USA during the late '60's and early '70's....JRWEST www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Seo727@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 20:12:40 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Introduction and comments My name is Steve Seo and I have posted to this list in the past regarding issues concerning my father, Grandmaster In Sun Seo. While those were anything but enjoyable, this post is a little more to my liking because I can give my opinions on certain issues concerning martial arts. And if there is one thing I love talk about, it's martial arts. First of all, perhaps I should give a little background on myself. I began training in martial arts(Kuk sool) at the age of 5 and received my cho(1st) dan at the age of 12. I trained under various instructors, but always under the supervision of my father as well as my older brother. Beyond conventional teaching, some of my most valuable lessons have come from observing the hundreds of masters I have had the pleasure to be exposed to. The different styles and philosophies I have seen have helped mold me into the martial artists I am today. I've trained mostly in the US but there have been many summers where I have trained in Korea. I've seen a plethora of different martial artists ranging from Kuk Sool, Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do all the way to Karate and Kung Fu. I mention this because I feel it is important for all martial artists to at least understand what other arts are out there. Couple of issues that I'd like to comment about are the Kuk Sool, Kuk Sool/Hapkido distinction as well as the Tribal Martial Arts aspects of Kuk Sool. 1) First of all, the art is Kuk Sool and the organization is Kuk Sool Won. When refering to the art, call it Kuk Sool, when refering to the organization, call it Kuk Sool Won. That's simply what the words mean and anyone using it otherwise isn't using the korean correctly. Secondly, I don't think most people living outside of Korea realize what "hapkido" means, or has come to mean in Korea. I've asked my father about this as well as my brother(who has grown up in the states but is currently living and training in Korea under the tutelage of my father). In Korea, Hapkido has become synonymous with Ho Shin Sool, or self defense and has almost become a generic appellation. Many Koreans know of Tae Kwon Do as any martial art involving kicking while any martial art that is more self defense(ie. joint-locking, close range fighting) is considered Hapkido. The situation is analogous to the situation in US in the past. Judo in the 60's, Kung Fu in the 70's and Karate in t! he 80's. I still have people ask me at my dojang,"So how long have you been doing Karate?" Given this reality, many school owners in are compelled to attach the Hapkido name to their school. Having a degree in Economics this makes perfect sense to me. It has a little to do with the Hotelling model of horizontal differentiation. Perhaps that's a little bit of a stretch and a little too esoteric for some, but my point is that its a question of economics and expediency. In terms of distinguishing characteristics of the arts, anyone who has Kuk Sool in any part of their name can trace their lineage back to a common origin. That might not be the case in the US, but my father has told me that it's true in Korea. 2) The issue of Korean tribal martial arts is very interesting because it has a lot ot do with the historical culture of Korea. From my understanding, in preindustrial times, most Koreans lived in tribal communities. Quite frequently, the village people would get together and have large "parties." There would a great deal of singing and dancing as well as other games and activities. There was also si-rrum (Korean style wrestling). In addition, I believe this is where people get the art of Tae-Kyon from. Many people misunderstand what Tae-Kyon is and where it comes from. Basically this art refers to the general "martial art" type activity that occurred in these gathering. My father has told me that the only remaining true Tae-Kyon martial artists/historian died several years ago. Most of the current practioners are converted Tae Kwon Do masters who combine the acrobatic kicks of TKD with the basic rythmic movements of Tae Kyon. It is undeniable, though, that Kore! ans have a tradition of tribal martial arts. To what extent Kuk Sool comes from that, I'm not sure, but I believe that there definitely is some overlap. Yours in Mu Sool, Steve Seo ------------------------------ From: RDNHJMS@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 20:18:21 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Hoi Jeon Moo Sool Championships I promised a while ago to post info regarding this event. Sorry it took so long. Here it is: The 5th Hoi Jeon Moo Sool World Games 12-13 Aug 2000 Eastern Michigan University (Bowen Field House) Ypsilanti, Mi Hosted by: Pan American Hoi Jeon Moo Sool Federation Master Marshall E. Johnson North American HMS Federation 105 S. Park St. Ypsilanti, Michigan 49198 Ph: 734-482-1332 Fax: 734-482-1419 Web Site: http://members.aol.com/dojang 105 e-mail: dojang 105@aol.com EVENTS: Color Belt (Sat) - Free Sparring, Self Defense, Breaking Black Belts (Sun) - Sparring - Strikes to head and body, low kicks (under knee), all throwing techniques, sweeps, any HJMS self defense technique Self Defense - Individual and Team Events. Scoring on purity of technique, continuity & compatibility, sturdiness & strength, variation & creativity. Special Kicks - Scoring on height, purity, balance and strength Bong Sool Do (Staff) - Individual and team events. Kum Sool Do (Sword) - Individual and team events. And of course, Grand Master Myung, Jae Ok will probably conduct a one of his very few public demonstrations. For those that have never seen this man move, you are really missing something. Teams from around the world will participate, including my old team from the middle east and Master Kang, Kyo Sig, my teacher. Unfortunately, the events are only open to HJMS members. However, it would be time well spent for those who get a chance to go and watch. Everyone in the HJMS organization, and I mean everyone, started at the white belt rank. Since the movements and techniques are so unique, no other style is really compatible, but Hapkido comes close. And GM Myung is very strict about awarding rank, and does not award cross over ranks to other styles. This may seen odd, or in some cases unnecessary to some. But you would understand if you studied the art. This is why the style is not well known in the US, but it has a large following in the Middle East, Europe, and South America. In any case, I have the greatest respect for GM Myung, as I did his brother, the late GM Myung, Jae Nam, and everyone in their organizations. I have studied HJMS for the last 10 years (I trained in the middle east with Master Kang), and have just began to become proficient in the moves. For those that can attend, I hope to see you there. V/R, Rick Nabors ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 20:24:32 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Honoring BB's I always keep a couple photographs of them taken during their BB test. The 8x10 pictures are hung near the entrance, and are surrounded by various current action shots of the class, and other good photos of students in tournaments and stuff. They are free to update the pics if they have a better/cooler shot. Mark Gajdostik ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 20:41:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: BB test traditions Promotion to BB is a big event in my organization. Different instructors all have little things they like to do during and after the test for the BB candidate. For example, in my and 2 other schools, the self defense test portion is done against the instructor. Other traditions are the sparring in accending rank order, all of the blackbelts present (for about 20 seconds each) and ending with the new BB's instructor. The JJ school I train with, has all of the BBs present, throw the new BB with their coolest/strongest/favorite throw. (that one really hurt) What does everyone on the list do as a tradition for someone's blackbelt test. Mark Gajdostik ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 20:57:17 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Association vs Federation In a message dated 5/4/00 5:43:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << "Polish Taekwondo Federation - WTF", since the Polish law forbids to form organisations with the same names (in Polish, both names without the distinction "sport" or "WTF" are exactly the same). >> Dear Piotr and List Members: This is kind of funny 'cause it's also true in Korea. It seems that there is no distinction in Korean between the terms Union, Federation, Organization, Association, etc., when pertaining to a sport. "Mee geuk taekwondo young maeng," (or something close as my Korean transliteration is probably nonstandard) is the translation used for: USTU, ATA, USTA, USTF, USNTF or anything similar! I learned this last November when I was over there listening to a speech given by the Korean Minister of Culture that was being simultaneously translated into English for the benefit our mixed group of masters. The translator kept alternating between "American Taekwondo Federation, US Taekwondo Federation, American Taekwondo Union and American Taekwondo Association" [this one, in particular, was not well received by the USTU/WTF leaders of which many were present]. In fact, I believe it was the USTU Secretary General, Soon Ho Kim, who was having a hard time convincing several members of the Korean Ministry of Culture and the Press Corps that the ATA was NOT the NGB for taekwondo in America and that the USTU should not be called the ATA. They did not immediately grasp the distinction, I was told. I heard the Eskimos - they are still called Eskimos, right - have something like 22 names for snow. That makes sense, but why do we have so many names for "Group?" Food for thought. SESilz ------------------------------ From: HKDHW@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 21:14:30 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Tribal Martial Arts In Dekalb Ill. I have a friend that teaches Jung Do Mool sul won his name is Michael Augsberger We have friends since 1985 when we met at a Hapkido seminar Sponsored by the North American Hapkido Association. Mikes Father in law is Korean and in his early sixties and teaches the Royal Court, And Tribal Arts if in the area look him up he may be able to answer some of your Questions. Hal ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 18:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: tribal arts, worldwide Master West's description of the tribal arts that Dr. Kimm referenced in his college text seems very reasonable. Looking at those tribes that have been discovered over time that have avoided contact with the outside world we see that they do have fairly common hunter/warrior arts. Fairly basic weapon arts, few if any hand-to-hand arts save some wrestling/grappling. Who was the dude in the Bible that wrestled God all night and only came away with a bad hip?). Master Silz, is that what happened to you? :) Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 18:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #314 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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