From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #339 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 15 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 339 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Rank the_dojang: re: Len the_dojang: Re: Rank the_dojang: Re: Rank the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #336 [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 945 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Martin Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:40:34 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Rank In the US it seems we are just starting to catch up. I know about 2 dozen (or more) 6th Dans in their 30's and 40's. I think I posted before that in the ITF/USTF a student must be 14 1/2 years old before testing for 2nd and 16 1/2 before testing for 3rd and 19 1/2 before testing for 4th Dan. But I think we will see a bunch of 6 Dans in their late 20's and early 30's because we are starting to get kids that are sticking with it. To me this is the real problem: commitment to the art by young people. I know in my own school our competition is not other martial arts schools but rather other sports. So many kids are involved in other activities in the US its hard to get them serious in martial arts. By getting them more involved at a younger age, maybe we can keep them going. Bob Martin From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: rank I recently received a short memo from an American master that got his start in the martial arts in 1943, when he was 18 years old. In discussing rank and age he mentioned that in Japan in 1950 there were 2,700 Judo 6th Dans - - -under- the age of 30. The point? We often talk about rank inflation and people obtaining rank too quickly these days. Perhaps we in the West are just now catching up to the East. Yes, being a 9th Dan while only in your 30s seems way out-of-line, but we don't see many 28 or 29 year old 6th Dans even today here in the West. Should we? Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:50:50 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: Len That sounds like a good idea. Would there be any copyright infringement though? Frank ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:59:06 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Rank From: Ray Terry >I recently received a short memo from an American master that got his >start in the martial arts in 1943, when he was 18 years old. In discussing >rank and age he mentioned that in Japan in 1950 there were 2,700 Judo 6th Dans >- -under- the age of 30. > >The point? We often talk about rank inflation and people obtaining rank too >quickly these days. Perhaps we in the West are just now catching up to the >East. Yes, being a 9th Dan while only in your 30s seems way out-of-line, but >we don't see many 28 or 29 year old 6th Dans even today here in the West. >Should we? IMHO it all depends on what value and expectations are placed on rank, and the value we place on martial arts in general. I am under the impression that for many Eastern cultures the martial arts are more of way of everyday life than in Western cultures. In Korea for example, I get the impression that just about everyone is expected to learn a martial art at a young age. In that kind of a culture reaching 6th Dan before 30 would not surprise me. However, in the US a 6th Dan who is less than 30 is a rare exception. Very few people in the US study the martial arts from a young age and make it a part of their life. Our expectations are much different. Should we expect more 6th Dans who are less than 30 years old in Western culture? No. Not unless Western culture changes it's expectations regarding the martial arts. Given that Western culture does not create young 6th Dans, should Western schools change their ranking philosophy to create more young 6th Dans to keep pace with Eastern MA schools? I don't think so. By making it easier to reach 6th Dan in less time, the rank would be devalued. The number of young 6th Dans in Western culture is right where it should be, given that Western cultures' value and expectations of the martial arts are not as strong as those of most Eastern cultures. Americans consume millions of hamburgers every year. Should the Japanese start eating more hamburgers to catch up to us? :) To Life, - -David Buehrer 6th Gup, Hapkido http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3 - -- "Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!" ------------------------------ From: IMATC@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:42:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Rank In a message dated 05/15/00 10:56:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > We often talk about rank inflation and people obtaining rank too > quickly these days. Perhaps we in the West are just now catching up to the > East. Yes, being a 9th Dan while only in your 30s seems way out-of-line, > but > we don't see many 28 or 29 year old 6th Dans even today here in the West. > Should we? I agree that in the west, ranking may seem like belt mills and many people forget to find out how early or often many of these Masters were promoted. Many times I heard an instructor say, wait, you aren't ready. But are they using different criteria than their own instructors? A higher one? Are there teaching methods more superior that the student could learn faster 50 years ago? Learning environment so inadequate that our understanding decreases with time? For many active training students, do they not wait longer than most prescibed periods for Dan testing? Just wondering what other readers feel. ------------------------------ From: JBoorstein@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:44:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #336 Thanks for the bib. It will help build my library for Korean studies. Or if your taste runs toward the Romance languages over the Germanic, etudes Corees. JB PS: My French is only marginally better than my Korean. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #339 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.