From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #346 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 17 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 346 In this issue: the_dojang: missing the Aiki ? Re: the_dojang: Officer Needs Help Re: the_dojang: Ki finger the_dojang: RE: Chuck Norris the_dojang: Re: Ki Finger the_dojang: ASP (baton) training the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #344 the_dojang: Fw: Ki finger extended [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 945 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:17:55 PDT Subject: the_dojang: missing the Aiki ? > What's undeniable is that basic Hapkido hoshinsul is VERY close to > Aiki Jujitsu. Perhaps. The Daito Ryu Aiki-JJ tapes I've seen were unlike Hapkido, much more like Aikido. But I have only seen one set of tapes. H.E. Davey has authored a book on Daito Ryu and we've had an interesting chat or two on the phone. I asked to come train with him (to personally look for the similarities/differences), but he is only interested in spending time with those that want to make his art their own. Others have said that Hapkido appears to be missing the Aiki aspects of Daito Ryu. So perhaps what you claim above is a similar statement. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com P.S. A few good books on the topic come to mind: Samurai AikiJutsu, Obata; Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu, Pranin; The Hidden Roots of Aikido (Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu), Omiya; Unlocking the Secrets of Aiki-jujutsu, Davey ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:36:31 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Officer Needs Help > So, my current project is trying to apply stick fighting techniques to the > use of our ASP (expandable metal baton)- can someone recommend a video for > me? This would save me much valuable time (which I do not have). Better > yet, has someone already attempted this challenge? I REALLY was > dissatisfied with how our department trained us in the use of this impact > weapon. This is where the Filipino martial arts of Eskrima or Kali or Arnis (different words, similar arts) do well. They are stick (or blade) focused and are highly effective. I recommend Serrada or Inayan Dequerdas. Dequerdas was actually created with the LEO and the police baton in mind. Unfortunately I don't know of any Dequerdas videos out there. There are some Serrada videos available (check the FMA side of our website). However, I think it would be next to impossible to learn Serrada from video alone. Hapkido Master John Man So has a 5-tape series of videos out. #2 has some Hapkido middle-stick techniques and #5 has LEO techniques. I have seen #2, but have yet to be able to locate #5. The stick techniques in #2 are basic stick grappling techniques, a subset of GM Cacoy Canete's system of Eskrido. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com P.S. Our 'other' list... Do you practice Eskrima/Kali/Arnis or some other Filipino martial art? If so, why not join the Filipino martial arts e-mail distribution list? Eskrima-Digest is a ~1100 member e-mail distribution list for the respectful discussion of the Filipino martial arts, for those wheresoever dispersed around the globe. 6 years of continuous operation. The list is managed by "Majordomo". To subscribe to eskrima-digest send e-mail to the address; majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com with subscribe eskrima-digest in the BODY of the message, top line and left justified (not in the subject line). Also, make sure your e-mail is not in HTML format, use 'Plain Text' if using Outlook or Outlook Express. Brought to you by http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:42:34 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Ki finger >I'd like to start a new discussion about use of the index finger in Hapkido. >The different instructors I've had didn't stress it, nor did Dojunim JI in >the seminars I've been to with him, but obviously it is a big deal in some >versions of Hapkido, even being used in the symbol for some HKD organizations. >Also obviously it helps in concentrating the grip on the bottom three >fingers and in pointing it lining up the direction you want the person >to go. ??? I picked it up from GM Ji. Actually I knew it prior to working with him, but he did mention the application of it. It seems to do at least two primary things; (1) increase grip strength, (2) the extended finger activates some interesting pressure points low on the wrist/arm. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:44:26 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: RE: Chuck Norris > From: Ray Terry > Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:00:07 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: the_dojang: Chuck Norris > > This from ITFer Robert Martin: > > > An interesting side note: Gen. Choi Hong Hi awared Chuck Norris > > an 8th Dan in the ITF a couple of weeks ago. > > Is this true? Not that Master Norris doesn't deserve such rank, > but this would seem to not support recent statements about the ITF > and how they are organized, esp given that Master Norris does not > even teach Taekwondo. Is this perhaps an honorary rank? > > To Ft. Fun Danny, I'm not being critical of the ITF. Just > asking... :) I'm back from my latest knee operation, I'm 'way behind on reading the list, and I don't know what's going on with Chuck Norris... but I would be _very_ suprised if the General did this. First of all, it would _have_ to be an honorary rank, unless Master Norris converted over to the ITF (which would be news to me). Secondly, I wouldn't think the General would award "honorary" rank at all (but I could be wrong); but if he did, almost certainly not 8th Dan. I'm guessing here, but there are probably less than 20 ITF 8th Dans in the world (anybody know?). That's a pretty elite and selective group to be handing out honorary memberships to. OTOH, what exactly would an "honorary 8th Dan" mean? Is he an 8th Dan or not? I've never been clear on what, exactly, honorary rank/degrees mean. If someone has an honorary Ph.D., do we call them "Doctor"? - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:47:30 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ki Finger Not to start anew another Hapkido controversy, but if GM Ji didn't teach Ki finger, than the vast majority of Hapkido sunsu wouldn't do it. I can't tell you specifically where and how GM Ji teaches Ki Finger, never having learned directly from him, but it was stressed in my Korean dojang where we honored GM Ji as our Hapkido senior and followed his program, and my current KwangJangnim Harold Whalen teaches it; he has also come through the GM Ji lineage. Jesse David wrote: > I'd like to start a new discussion about use of the index finger in Hapkido. > The different instructors I've had didn't stress it, nor did Dojunim JI in the > seminars I've been to with him ... ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:00:50 EDT Subject: the_dojang: ASP (baton) training << So, my current project is trying to apply stick fighting techniques to the use of our ASP (expandable metal baton)- can someone recommend a video for me? This would save me much valuable time (which I do not have). Better yet, has someone already attempted this challenge? >> First, I am very pleased that my Hapkido video has benefited you! My main objective was to introduce Hapkido self-defense principles and techniques that a person could actually use and implement into their own training. As for videos on the use of the ASP or other batons, I have a few that may be good. I say MAY, because I have NOT yet watched these, but they are on my list to check into. First is Tactical Baton with Kelly Worden available from Paladin Press. It's a two tape set for 59.95. It is specifically on the telescoping baton. I have seen other videos by Kelly, and he is a competent instructor. Sometimes he gets going a bit fast for a novice to follow on video, but he does know his stuff and puts out some good information. Learn more about this video and others at paladin-press.com P.S. Kelly is a past author of the month at that site, so you can learn more about him there too. Next is Hock Hochheim's DMS videos. I have some of Hock's hand to hand videos, and find them to be very good for instructing in street fighting principles and techniques. He also has out a series of knife fighting videos which I have not seen, and the DMS videos which are on stick fighting. These DMS videos are supposed to cover longer sticks and short including the police night stick, baton, cane shotgun, rifle, etc. Hock is a retired police officer, so much of his training is aimed at the what the officer on the street needs. Learn more at: http://www.hockscqc.com/ And last, Hapkido uses the baton or dan-bong in training. I did not put any on my first video, but may introduce a little in my next. We practice strikes, blocks, joint locking and throwing techniques with it. I just noticed this week that Master Geoff Booth in Australia has a dan-bong (baton) video out. This would be a more traditional approach, but I'm sure it would be useful for a police officer using an ASP. Maybe Geoff can tell us a bit more about what is covered that would help an officer. Again, I have not viewed these videos personally, but knowing the instructors, I think they would all be useful. I plan on ordering the dan-bong video real soon, and will probably order Hocks sometime before the end of the year. And I will get Kelly's one of these days. Hope this helps a bit. If anyone has viewed any of these videos, please give your opinions on them. And I am also interested in any others out there on the dan bong or baton that people find useful. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: "Joel S. Weissler" Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:18:31 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #344 >>An interesting side note: Gen. Choi Hong Hi awared Chuck Norris > an 8th Dan in the ITF a couple of weeks ago. Is this true? Not that Master Norris doesn't deserve such rank, but this would seem to not support recent statements about the ITF and how they are organized, esp given that Master Norris does not even teach Taekwondo. Is this perhaps an honorary rank?<< Chuck Norris has a legitimate claim on ITF Ranking -- Chuck Norris's original Korean Master was a student of Grand Master Moon Ku Baek. Moon Ku Baek received his original Black belt from Hwan Kee (one of his first hundred), but was then recruited by General Choi Hong Hi and was one of his first Masters. The General sent then Master Baek to North America to teach a particular student who is I believe now head of the ITF for North America. Grandmaster Baek broke away from the ITF organization many years before I studied under him. I had the privilege to be a student of GM Baek for six years prior to his death (I also served during that time as his and his family's attorney). Mr. Norris gave GM Baek proper respect throughout GM Baek's lifetime. I am quite familiar with the ITF current and older curriculms. With the exception to changes in forms Chuck Norris's fighting system is extremely close to ITF's older core system, his martial arts lineage and contribution to the development of TKD are significant. In a related matter -- Rank inflation -- My original instructor was very traditional. I was taught that ranks through second Dan were or should be recognition of personal skill and development. Third through fifth recognized continuing comittment and success in teaching. Recognition as a Master ordinarily required bringing at least ten students through from white to black belt. Above fifth Dan required contribution to the art. This could be through the development of a large number of legitimate black belts, raising the esteem of the Art in the community, regionally or nationwide, or through development of good and useful forms or teaching techniques. Acheiving these things take time. Can a 19 year old have taught ten students through black belt ? perhaps -- or perhaps not. Can they have made a contribution to the art ? These in my opinion are the right questions to ask in determining whether a rank is justified or inflated. ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:24:11 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Fw: Ki finger extended I was taught to extend my Ki finger from day one, and continue to teach that way today. This is a post about the subject that was wrotten for another forum...J. R. West www.hapkido.com >Apart from the obvious meaning of the term "Ki finger", one of the main >reasons for extending the index finger during techniques is to force the >bone at the base of the index finger to protrude into the gripped area. >This protrusion helps to allow the practitioner to apply pressure with his >or her hand in two directions at once, that is, as I pull up with the >remaining three fingers, I push down with the base of my index finger with >the rotational point of my hand being located approx. where the bottom joint >of my middle finger is. This motion changes the dynamics of the technique >immensely. Whether or not you believe in Ki is not relevant to using the >"Ki" finger to your advantage, if you don't, you're missing a huge advantage >in your basic motion. In the early and mid 60's, one of the first things >taught to beginners was the proper extension of the index finger in all >techniques. ....J. R. West www.hapkido.com > ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #346 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.