From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #357 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 23 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 357 In this issue: the_dojang: re: Off to Ohio the_dojang: Hapkido Seminar the_dojang: Looking for a gong the_dojang: "Taekwondo Times" the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #356 the_dojang: Re: the_dojang: Re: Ethics the_dojang: Korean Assassins And Purple Belt Form the_dojang: Re: Is it proper ? the_dojang: Results from Olympic Event the_dojang: Morality and the arts the_dojang: Donna the_dojang: Ethics and MA's (kind of long) the_dojang: Happy birthday! the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #351 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #353 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #354 the_dojang: Student with injury in calf muscle... the_dojang: Re: Ki Finger the_dojang: Re: Ethical Training; A Schoolyard Brawl the_dojang: Re: Ethics in Martial Arts training the_dojang: Re: Ethics in martial arts training [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 955 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:07:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: Off to Ohio I hope that you have a safe trip. Frank ------------------------------ From: HKDHW@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 14:43:57 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Seminar As we tend to take things and people for granted, When we have a family a member sick or ill it effects every aspect of our life and we cannot change these things nor face the fact that we may loose someone we love or care for. A Black Belt student of Master Mike McCarty and a member of Moo-ye-kwan has to face the ultimate test of one's spirit, His wife was diagnosed with terminal Breast cancer and not only will she leave her husband Pat Edenburn but her three children all still in school. As anyone whom has dealt with cancer knows it is not prejudice, Nor will it discriminate it will take anyone without thought or conscience. We will be conducting a Hapkido seminar in June at the CT. DoJang for her benifit.I will donate 100% of all the proceeds and use our own funds to promote and advertise the event. More information will follow as the date approaches It will be a worth while event that will hopefully help the Edenburns with some of their expenses, If you can make attend it will be for a worth while cause. As all Moyekwan seminars we will not only cover jointlocks but Cane, Tan Bong joint locks, Defense against jointlocks, Kicks, and middle stick, and Pistol Defense, Also Hand cuffing techniques. Hal Whalen ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:21:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Looking for a gong I'm looking for a 12 - 18 inch hanging Oriental gong. Pickings are slim on the Internet; can anyone suggest where I might find one? Thanks! ------------------------------ From: SecOfDef@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:18:09 EDT Subject: the_dojang: "Taekwondo Times" Hello, The magazine Taekwondo Times has been mentioned several times in this list. I checked out their web page and was generally impressed with what I saw. Is this a magazine that is indeed worth subscribing to? The articles seem quite interesting... Any reply is appreciated Sam 5th Kup/Gup/Grade/? ..ATA ------------------------------ From: "Neal Konecky" Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 03:06:55 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #356 With regard to becoming "moral police" of our students, I think the issue comes down to this. Is the person in question harming another person, including emotional distress, but not including whether we "approve" of their choices. This gives people the right to make their own choices and take responsibility for them. A person who lives with his girlfriend (or vice versa) is not the same as someone who cheats on their spouse. The cheater has added a 3d person who is being hurt. Perhaps it is an oversimplification, but maybe it is worth thinking about. Neal ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 00:20:16 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: In a message dated 5/20/00 9:14:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I think the issues are easier to address in terms of illegal and not in line with the moral culture of the martial arts. If they are illegal then you have a legal response ability to act. If you don't you could end up losing more then just your school. >> Some of these druggies will train at various places to aid in thier illegal businesses. You got to think what is he (or she ) going to use the skills you teach him for and who against? Will he use it to resist a police during arrest? Will they use it to take advantage of someone unable to protect themselves? Reminds me of a Well known tactical trainer who runs a school in the midwest. I was told by an officer who patrols in that area that this well know schools was training gang menbers on close quarter pistol shooting and instinctive shooting /shooting on the move. Alot of people in Law enforcement field refuse to go there now.........Just makes me wonder how many People got to experience the training these thugs recieved... Jack Ouellette ------------------------------ From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 00:50:11 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ethics Scott Miller wrote: <<...Does the philosophy of your art bend in lockstep with the actions of your legislators? On the other hand, if your school or art is integrated by design with a comprehensive system of moral standards, then you as an instructor are bound to pass the judgements of that system on to your students.>> I have to agree with the above. Do you expel students that habitually drive faster than the speed limit? Unlawful doesn't mean immoral. Teach who you want to, but I am not a priest or a cop or their mother. (Apologies to Ms. Mitchell). I try to be honest, be fair, and I sleep pretty well. But if martial arts is meant to promote values, are these values inherent in the student or found in the art? If it is instilled by the art, then it seems that those students "morally challenged" are the ones we need to teach. If the students have to bring the good values with them, then tell me again exactly how is this different from a weird aerobics with funny clothes? ------------------------------ From: Tim Bruening Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:34:50 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Assassins And Purple Belt Form I am beginning to learn Joong-Gun, the Purple Belt Form in ITC Taekwondo. Joong-Gun is named after the patriot An Joog-Gun, who assassinated Hiro-Bumi Ito, the first Japanese Governor of Korea, known as the man who played the leading part of the Korea-Japan merger. Mr An was executed at Lui-Shung prison in 1910. Has anyone in Japan ever protested naming a Karate form after an assassin? ------------------------------ From: Cav5312@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:53:21 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Is it proper ? Normally, I'm just a reader, but now I have a question !! I have been training in Tang Soo Do for about 2 years in my school. A fellow student I have been training with has just been promoted to 2nd Dan and Kyo Sa. Is it proper for all or some of us to give a gift of congratulations ? We are all very proud of his hard work and very happy for him ! Chella 3rd gup, Tang Soo Do New York ------------------------------ From: Tkdtiger@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:35:35 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Results from Olympic Event For the 2 people in the world who don't already know - The US will be represented in Sydney by: Juan Moreno Steven Lopez Barb Kunkel Kay Poe I would just like to comment on how emotional it all was when Esther Kim relinquished her dream and bowed out to an injured Kay Poe to allow her the opportunity to represent the United States. This could not be the easy decision she made it seem. I applaud this young lady and even more so her father and coach Master Kim from Texas - who obviously taught two young ladies honor as well as technique. ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:14:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Morality and the arts Hi Folks, I've been listening off and on to the "morality in the dojang" discussion and I'm a little bemused by it. If someone is doing something illegal, then you should take steps to stop them, whether that is blowing the whistle, personal intervention, or whatever. If what they are doing is NOT illegal, then you should not do anything to "save" that person. You should work to keep the dojang a professional place where everyone can train, and where the personal beliefs of both instructor and student don't get in the way of the art. Catering to the opinions of others MAY help you commercially, but it is probably also doing a disservice to the community by isolating it and shutting down communication. The great thing about a gym is that EVERYONE can come in and work out. It should not become a clique. I would say that the instructors should worry about their OWN moral standards first, and lead by example. Just my two cents, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: CA&B Skjold Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:28:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Donna I have, I have several times been tempted to ask her age and rank. I admire her as she is thought provoking and has flow. Anne Just wondering if anyone other than me has noticed how much Donna has grown philosophically since she was a beginner in martial arts. Sally Baughn cbaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:01:28 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Ethics and MA's (kind of long) The current conversation regarding ethics and martial arts has been quite interesting so I thought I'd offrer a little bit of my advice on some of the issues raised. Shaun wrote: >This brings up something I've been thinking about for a long time. I >completely agree with the ethical/emotional aspect of training in a > >martial art. In the past, that have been students in our school who > >have engaged in behaviors that were either outright illegal (drug > >possession) or just plain unethical (cheating on their spouse). I > >wonder how the people on the list feel about what kinds of possible > >consequences there should be for such things. I do not see any reason > >why we cannot or should not hold people to a higher standard when > >studying a martial art. (Believe me, my students know they are not > >stuyding a martial sport! :) Should they be held back from testing, > >removed from class, left to do whatever they feel like? Indeed, one of the puropses of the martial arts is to become better people. Just as there is a ranking system for the physical techniques a person's mental and moral development could certainly be taken into account when promotion time roles around. Otherwise what exactly are the Tenants for? They become mere words to hang up in the dojang for reading. "Oh, Courtesy, Integrity...those are nice ideals but don't expect me to attain them." I am not saying we will act like we should at all times but if these things remain "ideals" then we are saying they can never be achieved, which I don't believe for a second. If there are people in class who you KNOW are behaving in an unethical (let alone illegal) manner let them know 1) they will not be promoted at the next test, 2) they will not have the PRIVILEGE of coming to class for a set period of time, or 3) they are no longer members of the school. This should depend on the severity of the problem and you might want to use the above three as steps if the problem persists over time. REMEMBER, this should NOT come as a surprise to the student in question. As an instructor you should have open communication with them. Let them know you are concerned about their problems. Also, make sure that the consequences are framed as a means for them to realize how serious things are. >My dilemma comes from the fact that their actions do not actually >directly >affect anyone in the class (except for themselves) but by >participating in >such activities, they are going against the true >spirit of the martial >arts. What does it matter if they are the only ones that they are hurting? What makes you or me more valuable as a person than they are? The fact of the matter is they ARE hurting themselves. When I was a counselor we didn't let the kids who were self-abusive cut their wrists just because they were only hurting themselves. > I have heard the argument that those are the people who really *need* >martial art training so they can learn and change their ways. What do >you >all think? I love the martial arts. I have been doing Taekwon-Do for 14 years. If all goes well I will die in my uniform. I have benefited tremendously from the training, physically and mentally. That being said, I do not view Taekwon-Do to be on the same level as God. It can benefit people who want the benefits. Besides, if you expell a student who loves Taekwon-Do (temporarily) they will realize how serious the matter in question really is. That should be a motivator for them to change. But remember, we can't hold someone's hand and force them not to sell drugs, be faithful, not to be a stripper, etc. They have to freely choose these things. Thayne wrote: >I think it's kind of dangerous to appoint yourself as a moral arbiter >for >things that go on outside of the school. Some things that might >be >considered immoral to you might not be considered immoral to other >people. This is true. However, "disagreement doesn't preclude knowledge" as one of my professors said. I can think that murder is wrong and someone else can think it's okay. They are still wrong. >The situations you're mentioning don't seem to fall in that category, >but >I still imagine that people aren't going to take too well to being >judged >at that level for their actions. If we do not judge people by their actions then how ARE we to judge them? It's easy to say we shouldn't judge anyone at all but we DO judge people EVERYDAY. Actions speak louder than words. People might not like it but then again they do not have to train at your school if they don't. I am NOT saying that every thing they do has to come under the instructor's scrutiny. It doesn't and it shouldn't. But the behaviors in the original question seemed serious enough to warrant attention. If they are not addressed by the instructor the student is drawing the conclusion that they are either alright or that the instructor doesn't care. >(A bunch of rhetorical questions to follow:) These were really good and thought provoking. >A guy I know in my school doesn't mind that his young daughter is >living >with her boyfriend (both of whom are at the school also). I >don't agree >with that choice. Which ones should I kick out? All of >them? This situation of co-habitation is so prevelant today that I am surprised that someone thinks that it's not okay. Because of this if they were expelled from school many people would think that the instructor was some old-fashioned backwards looking fossil who needed to step into the 21st century. This could certainly lead to problems itself. To avoid this simply give the reasons why you would not be in favor of your own daughter living with her boyfriend next time he tells you about their living arrangement. It doesn't have to be argumentative just somethig like, "the divorce rate for a couple who co-habits is twice that of those who do not." >A girl in my school is a stripper, should I kick her out because I find >that offensive? To which Ken responded: >No, I believe the women's body is a joyous splendid sight to >behold. So I would suggest that you send that student to a new >school I may form in the future. While I agree with Ken that women are a delight to behold, stripping is merely another form of pornography. Like pornography it is an insult to a woman's dignity. She is looked upon as an object not as a person. This causes her to question her own self worth. It also causes men to look at women without the respect they deserve and to see them as simply a means to their own gratification. Unfortunately this view can easily spread itself to a man's interaction with other women (friends, co-workers, his wife, etc.). Not good. Don't kick the stripper out. Tell her that she shpouldn't have to lower herself to the level of an object. If she would like to quit stripping but can't afford to offer her lessons for free and perhaps a position as the school's secretary. If you have any friends who are in business tell her you'd be happy to be a reference for her. Any work that doesn't insult someone's dignity is better than a job that reduces someone to a commodity, I don't care how good the money is. >A guy in my school is a drug dealer, but has never tried selling at >class, >should I kick him out? My initial reaction is a whole hearted YES! But I think that is mostly due to some very bad experiences I have had in the past with people who used drugs. If you know he is selling and have proof of it then you should notify the police. If you have no proof tell him that you know he is a drug pusher and he has to stop. If not he is out of the school. Give him a chance to change but make him aware of the consequences if he does not. >A guy in my school is trying to sell drugs at class, should I kick him > >out? Yes. This will give the message to the other students that you care about their well being. Instructors in the martial arts can be looked at as another father (or mother). This carries with it an enourmous responsibility. You must protect your class as if you were protecting your family. I would never do anything that would hurt my instructor and I KNOW he would never do something like that to me. Thanks again for such a great conversation and exchange of ideas. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Marko or Mitar" Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:56:54 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Happy birthday! If I remember well enough, today (Monday) is birthday of a member of The_Dojang-Digest, so if I'm right, HAPPY BIRTHDAY! I wish you all the best. Have a great time on your birthday party! Mitar ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:36:17 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #351 In a message dated 5/18/00 8:46:59 PM Mountain Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << A girl in my school is a stripper, should I kick her out because I find that offensive? A guy in my school is a drug dealer, but has never tried selling at class, should I kick him out? A guy in my school is trying to sell drugs at class, should I kick him out? ... >> How do you attract such a fun-love'n crowd? SESilz ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:45:45 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #353 In a message dated 5/19/00 7:42:17 AM Mountain Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << ANYONE selling controlled substances...regardless of to whom or where they are selling is breaking the law...we are not here to support those that commit federal offensives. >> ...On the other hand, perhaps this person's experience in the martial arts might be what inspires them to rethink their lives and make significant and positive lifestyle changes. It has happened before, but, of course, there's no guarantee. SESilz ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:54:39 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #354 In a message dated 5/19/00 2:58:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << There's no reason for Karate to impact TKD as it is now practiced in the Olympics. The two styles are very different (i.e. TKD uses mostly kicking, Karate uses mostly punching). >> This reminds me that back in '95 when Karate was given a shot at the Pan-Am Games, Karate's US Team Trials were held at the US Olympic Training Center Sport Center 2 during the same weekend that the US Open TKD Championship was hosted in the OTC's Sport Center 1. What I and many of my friends got out of it was a good sense of contrast. These arts are totally different in both forms and sparring. The spectators that I informally polled indicated that, from a viewer's standpoint, taekwondo was tremendously more exciting to watch. It is my belief that if Karate becomes an Olympic Sport, it will help boost the recognition and popularity of taekwondo immensely as then the average Joe will at last be able to see and recognize the vast difference. SESilz ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:32:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: Student with injury in calf muscle... I had a student who just had a injury during 3-step sparring in class. He set down in horse-stance and had sudden pain in the calf muscle. He said it felt like something "popped". I had him ice it, but he's of course still hobbleing around. He had this same sort of thing happen while running 3-months ago. Intense pain the the calf-muscle, and it swelled up a lot. Any idea's what might have caused this? How should it be treated? Does he need to see a doctor? I suggested he do see the doctor, but he's reluctant to do so... Erik Kluzek, (CGD at NCAR) National Center for Atmospheric Research Boulder CO, (off) (303)497-1326 (fax) (303)497-1324 - --------- Home page and public PGP key--------------- http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/~erik !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:01:16 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ki Finger Thank you JR and Jesse on your posts on the Ki finger. In terms of Hapkido organization that uses it as their symbol, in ROK Korea, the Korea Hapkido Federation uses the Ki finger in the background of a yin-yang as their official symbol. The Korea Hapkido Federation is a non-profit organization officially recognized by the ROK government. Its government recognition is similar to, but not identical to the recognition of the Korea Taekwondo Association. The official Korean name of the federation is Sa Dan Bub In Daehan Hapkido Hyub-hoe. The federation is headed by Grandmaster Oh Se-lim, an early student of Grandmaster Ji, Han Jae. (I hope this helps everybody.) Sincerely, Michael Choi ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:10:20 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ethical Training; A Schoolyard Brawl Re: A Schoolyard Brawl... I think that the use of force in a self-defense situation varies by person. I think that using martial arts in "the streets" to defend oneself is a justified use of force. Also, there are individuals who just use their techniques to fight with whomever they please. Korea has the ignominious history of trained martial artists running rackets against local businesses. I also admire those who refrain from using their technique even though it costs them their money. I do not totally agree with that train of thought. One of Shotokan Founder Funakoshi's stories come to mind. When two guys tried to mug him, he used his Karate-do techniques, but he was so ashamed. He was disappointed in himself in his lack of bushido character. He was convinced that he used his techniques for selfish reasons, even though it was defensive. He felt that it would have been more humane and moral if he had just agreed to his assailants' demands. Personally, it's alright for practitioners to use martial arts to defend themselves, but it takes true character and wisdom to preclude the use of force. Sun Tzu, the Chinese strategist, said that war (and likewise, the use of force) should be the absolute last resort. If all other attempts at diplomacy fail, war should be reluctantly taken. Re: Ethical Training I believe that the primary source of morals and/or ethics is the "home" or the family. Nevertheless, traditional Northeast Asian martial arts (i.e., Chinese, Japanese, and Korean) should reinforce the universal values of respect, justice, courtesy, etc. as the martial arts have Buddhist, Confucianist, and Taoist traditions. Most Korean martial arts have evolved to be a good source of non-religious ethical training. I believe that students must have good character in order to be a member of a Asian martial arts school. They must maintain the ethics of their school/dojang and their art. Sincerely, Michael Choi ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:19:51 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ethics in Martial Arts training Thayne posed some very interesting questions. No, I do not believe that instructors should be a moral arbiter, i.e., they should impose their personal values on others. Rather they should maintain and uphold the values of their art. For example, if one teaches Taekwondo, they should maintain the values of the art. In ROK Korea, Kukkiwon and the Korea Taekwondo Association have clearly articulated what these values are (unfortunately most of the material is in Korean and mostly Koreans only receive this training). Likewise, if one teaches Hapkido, they should maintain the values of their art. In this care, the Korea Hapkido Federation (and the Korea Hapkido Association) have also articulated the "Nine Virtues." Whether Taekwondo or Hapkido, the instructor has the responsibility of maintaining the values of the dojang among its members. With regards to Korean arts, most instructors are ignorant of the values, traditions, and culture of their arts to properly maintain the values of the art. If one understood the Korean values and martial arts tradition, then the values and philosophy of the art can be passed on to the students alongwith the techniques. Sincerely, Michael Choi ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:38:52 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ethics in martial arts training I forgot to mention, an instructor should never approach students' about their outside life without proof. It would be wise for the instructor maintain a good and professional relationship with all his students. The instructor should be influential/charismatic enough to cause the school members to maintain an ethical lifestyle. But this does not mean that the instructor should possessive of the student. Again, the instructor must maintain a relationship based on respect and professionalism with the proper amount of distance between the instructor and the student. Sincerely, Michael Choi ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #357 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.