From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #361 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 27 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 361 In this issue: the_dojang: Black Belt Testing the_dojang: Mixing of TKD and Karate the_dojang: Front stances and physics the_dojang: "Back stance uncoils into attack front stance like a spring." the_dojang: Re: front stance the_dojang: Re: Stripping, last comment the_dojang: Strippers, REALLY the last comment the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #360-Ethics in Martial Arts the_dojang: Re: Training Question the_dojang: Ethics in the martial arts the_dojang: Re: Training Question the_dojang: Torn ACL the_dojang: 1st Purple Belt Stripe! the_dojang: US - Memorial Day ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 955 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TaoArt@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:55:40 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Black Belt Testing In a message dated 5/25/00 7:39:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << OK, I know we've been down this path many times with many good opinions, but I just gotta ask: Why? >> Kerry, If you were to ask the new black belts before the test, they would have said "yeah, why indeed?". And if you were to ask them why now, they would smile and say "find out for yourself." The testing is far more than reciting history or performing kata. The entire testing is held outdoors at a 300 acre private camp. It involves things like thinking on your feet, reacting under highly dynamic situations, modifying your skills to fit the situation at hand, utilizing resources, working through fatigue, teamwork, fast talking, faster running, hiding, 4AM talks about philosphy and more. But through it all... it is a test of the spirit. And no one comes out of it the same as when they went in. Meghan Gardner Guard Up, Inc. www.GuardUp.com "Carry love in your heart and a knife in your pocket at all times." me ------------------------------ From: Stickfighter27@cs.com Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:03:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Mixing of TKD and Karate Hi, I have an issue. I am starting a new school in somewhat of a small town. There is no martial art studio within at least 30 minutes away. I have a black belt in Karate and in chung do kwan TKD. What my question is. I kind of want to blend the two of them together teaching forms from both styles. Meaning the WTF forms and Palgwe forms along with my old Karate forms (Pyongs). So I know if any of my new students want to ever venture off into another school or whatever they encounter, they know forms from all different aspects. Not to mention I like to blend the two arts together. Most of the schools in my region are mostly Karate schools they will run such wtf forms like Chunji and or Dosan but thats about it....I also feel I want to call it TKD but is that appropriate? What other names can I legally get by with calling it so I wont catch slak from one style or the other? Thanks Cory ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:40:17 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: Front stances and physics > From: Ann-Marie White > > I've been having a discussion with one of my instructors about the > front stance. What is the purpose of the front stance? What > lessons are one supposed to take from the front stance and apply to > the rest of TKD? In my school, we punch, block and move from the > front stance, but we don't really kick from it. Yet, it seems to > be one of the foundations upon which this "kicking art" is built. > I want to argue that we get more than balance from the front > stance, but I'm not sure how to articulate the rest. What are your > opinions on this? Do you spar from a front stance? Do you have > more than one front stance that you use (medium deep and very > deep)? Likewise, what is the purpose of the backstance? Many people spar from neither a classic front nor a classic back stance; I've got two or three stances I use regularly, none of them are 'classic'. But, I do know people who use both very effectively. In ITF TKD (can't speak about other styles), the front or "walking" stance is IMHO a teaching tool. It's a comparitively simple stance, and much less physically demanding than back ("L") stances or sitting stances. (For 'less physically demanding' read 'less painful'.) It gives the beginner (and non-beginners!) a simple, solid foundation from which to learn other things - how to move, how to turn, how to generate power. Personally, I don't use the classic stances (1); but that doesn't mean they're not useful! My stances are effective _for me_; I developed them based on the principles I learned from the classics. The principles they embody are _critical_ in learning how to move. One of the first things I do when watching an action movie with hand-to-hand combat is to watch the actor's feet; it's quickly obvious who knows how to move and who doesn't. Compare, for example, Ewan McGregor (Kenobi) and Ray Park (Darth Maul) in Star Wars episode 1. McGregor actually does an excellent job for an actor, I was very impressed! But he's still not quite as balanced as Ray Park, who is an excellent martial artist. In this case you have to look closely; McGregor really did a good job, but he still slides around a little1. If you want a good example of _bad_ footwork, watch almost any Star Trek episode with an extended fight scene; they're mostly rather pitiful (although Whorf had some good moves every now and then). So look at these scenes, then watch your instructor spar. He/she probably isn't in a traditional front/back stance very much (or at all) - but somehow those feet always seem to be exactly where they need to be to keep him/her balanced. Magic? No. Just good training in the classic stances. ;-) > Also, I'd heard that there was a physics and martial arts list. > Does anyone have any information about it? I'm the moderator of that list; it's essentially dead, we've had no posts for several months. Part of the problem is that I'm trying to wrap up a Ph.D. (in physics) and don't really have time to mess with it; I think another problem is that not only is it hard to talk physics via email, the fundamental problem is an extraordinarily difficult one. I don't mean to sound patronizing, but going into any kind of detailed analysis of even the most simple technique requires IMHO more physics than most people have. But, we've had some good posts. If you want to subscribe, send an email message to with the text subscribe martphys firstname lastname in the _body_ of the message (the subject line is ignored). You'll be able to access the list's archives. And feel free to post; maybe you'll stir up some activity. ;-) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: TkdBPerry@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:52:23 EDT Subject: the_dojang: "Back stance uncoils into attack front stance like a spring." > What is the purpose of the front stance? What lessons are one supposed to > take from the front stance and apply to the rest of TKD? In my school, we > punch, block and move from the front stance, but we don't really kick from > it. Yet, it seems to be one of the foundations upon which this "kicking > art" is built. I want to argue that we get more than balance from the > front stance, but I'm not sure how to articulate the rest. What are your > opinions on this? Do you spar from a front stance? Do you have more than > one front stance that you use (medium deep and very deep)? Likewise, what > is the purpose of the backstance? > Thanks much! Ann-Marie Dear Ann-Marie: Even our ever increasing speed and more exciting attack-counterattack techniques are based upon solid basic motions and stances. Let us explore a long time favorite of our top instructors, coaches and athletes. This is the o ne-two punch followed three with the only forward step being the powerful front thrust kick with the ball of the foot. We are in a back stance with right foot back. Initiate a left jab, step over into a front stance follow with a right reverse punch, simultaneously following with the right front thrust kick (hip extended). Front stance in Taekwondo is important let us take a look at the mechanics, "the wind up the one-two punch and three kick," enforce muscle memory and allow a natural, powerful and quick turn for accuracy, speed and natural breathing letting the air out taking the pressure off the diaphragm. The entire body goes into "the wind up the one-two punch and three kick," like an uncoiling spring, providing max- imum power and drive. Hips should be tilted in such a way that the left hip is higher than the right hip facing back. Arm, wrist, leg, and ankle should be nice and loose. I favor the deep stances of the palgues but, also incorporate the Taegueks. Bob ------------------------------ From: Ken & Lisa Reff Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:37:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: front stance Ann-Marie: As a Hapkido practicioner, perhpas my take on the front stance will be different from your TKD background, but here goes... The front stance (80% or so of weight on front leg, bent knee, relatively straight back leg, front foot pointing straight ahead, rear foot either forward or slightly turned out, hips and shoulders square and facing forward) is not a sparring stance, it is a finishing stance. It is the final stance for contact and applying the "killing blow". All your power, rooted through the earth and focused forward to the explosion at the end of your fist. (heel palm, etc..) Driving into your opponent. Often delivered with a kihap. This stance is so solid and rooted that very little energy is lost (ie recoiled back into you). Everything flows outward into the technique. If you find yourself sparring from this stance, you will lose a goodly amount of speed- since it isn't designed with that in mind. Your opponent can move to your side (either side) and have a much larger and stationary target to attack, while you will expend time rising out of the stance and centering before you and respond with a kick of your own. You can, or course, execute blocks from here (either to the front or side) but your ability to move forward following the block is eliminated and you are reduced to counterpunching. The back stance (both knees bent, front foot pointing forward, rear foot turned out ninety degrees - forming an "L" with the front foot, body weight approx 80% over the back foot) is a more defensive stance, used often for blocking a kick or a surprise or more aggressive attack. Bringing your blocking hands up and "falling back" into the back stance allows you a brief moment to recover, gain some "breathing room" and then counterattack as appropriate. The front foot is light and can easily snap up as a block, knee strike or counter front kick or other jamming technique. I am very aware that different styles have different names for the same stance, strike, etc.. so pardon me if I have misunderstood your question. Sincerely, Ken Reff ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:58:25 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Stripping, last comment I said: >>stripping is merely another form of pornography. Like pornography >>it is an insult to a woman's dignity. She is looked upon as an >>object >>not as a person. This causes her to question her own self >>worth. >> >>Tell her that she shouldn't have to lower herself to the level of >>an object. If she would like to quit stripping but can't afford to >>offer >>her lessons for free and perhaps a position as the school's >>secretary. >>If you have any friends who are in business tell her >>you'd be happy to >>be a reference for her. Any work that doesn't >>insult someone's dignity >>is better than a job that reduces someone >>to a commodity. To which Anne replied: >How do you all know this woman has low self esteem or lack of self >worth? Maybe she choose this profession because she is very proud of >her >body and is confident enough to be able to share it through her > >performances as a stripper. Please note that I did not say that a stripper automatically starts out with a low self esteem. What I was trying to say was that due to being looked on by the "patrons" as being valuable only for their gratification this leads to having a low self-esteem. This hypothetical stripper may indeed have a very nice body and want to show it off. The only problem with this is that using ones body merely to be an object affects not only the person doing it but also the people who are watching. There is no such thing as behavior in a vaccum. What you do affects others, even if it isn't immediate. >She maybe taking martial arts as a way to condition and tone and >improve >flow of movement. Indeed. But this just begs the question of whether or not someone should be stripping in the first place. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:25:26 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Strippers, REALLY the last comment Didn't know I was going to cause such a stir by saying women should not be reduced to objects by stripping. Well, I had some idea... Anyway, this is the last you'll hear about it from me. Don't want things to go too far afield but I DO think ethics are inherently bound up with the Martial Arts, so on with the show. I said: > > . Like pornography > > it is an insult to a woman's dignity. To which Master Silz replied: > I am neither "for" nor "against" "exotic entertainment." I >believe >it is a personal decision to work in, or be a patron of, this >form of >"entertainment. Yes it is true that it is a personal decision to be involved in stripping or anything. But I thought the whole issue was whether or not it was an ethical decision. Almost everything is a personal decision in its last analysis but that doesn;t mean every decision is right. >However it occurs to me, contrary another person's commentary, that >it may >very well be the men whose pockets are being vacuumed by the >dancers that >are more the "victim" than the woman who is on stage. This is a great insight. While there is certainly a mutual using of the other going on I don't know which one is using the other more. But does two wrongs make a right? If one person uses me am I free to do the same to them? If I remember second grade correctly this is the excuse that children use. > The important thing to bear in mind is that both are there of >their >own free will. This means, that if in fact anyone is being >"exploited" it >is being done at their very own accord, or by their >own permission - so to >speak. Again, just because something falls under an exercise of free will does not mean it is de facto ethical. Or does it? If it did then is someone totally justified when they freely embezzle from the company they work for? This involves other people's money so maybe you think it's different. > Also, who am I to tell a person what they should do to feed >their >kids or pay for tuition? Should a woman who makes $250 a night >be forced >switch to working at Burger-World, or some other >near-minimal wage job? >Would that send her 'self-esteem' soaring to >heights heretofore unknown? Did I say ANYTHING about forcing her to do this? I said the instructor should offer her a job or see if she could get a job through a friend of his who would be in a position to hire someone. Never said anything about forcing someone to do something against their will. Also I do in fact believe it would be good for her self esteem. Honest work where you are not treating yourself or another person as an object to be bought and sold is inherently better and better for you. > Lastly, why is it that someone who was born with a fine brain is >not >condemned for using it for their financial advancement? Same for >a person >gifted musically. Should they not sing or play piano for a >paying >audience? (Conversely, is the audience exploiting them by >listening to >their music?) I am not saying one should not use the gifts they have. What I am saying is that they should use them, not abuse them. There is a difference. If I am gifted with a great intellect and become a doctor and help preserve people's health then I am using my gift. If I use my intellect to steal and not get caught I am abusing it. Same thing can be said for a beautiful body. There is nothing wrong with admiring a woman for her beauty. There is something wrong with reducing her to her body. This is exactly what stripping is based on - reducing someone to a commodity and ignoring them as a person. > Yet when someone is gifted with a beautiful physique and makes >the >personal decision to use it as a means of support, they are >condemned as >being immoral. ...Or it assumed that they are morons >who are being >exploited (while they may be laughing all the way to >the bank). Well, if it is immoral in the way they do it then I guess I am guilty. As far as laughing all the way to the bank is concerned however, I was under the impression that there are more important things in life than money. > Doesn't this double standard that has descended from our >Puritanical >ancestors bother anyone else but me? I don't see any double standard. Oh, and I am NOT a puritan. Sorry. > Funny thing is that these ancestors fled their homelands and >suffered >vast difficulty to come to this land so that they could be >free from being >told how to live their lives. Now it appears that >their sprit is invoked >to restrain or oppress those who dare believe >or choose to live >differently than they do. Uh, the spririt of the puritans is exactly to tell people how to live their lives. They believed in moral absolutes. That's one of the reasons they left England. They thought the Church of England was wrong and wanted to be free of its influence. They had no qualms about telling the members of their community how to live, however. > Enjoy your freedom...so long as you live your lives according to >MY >belief system, eh? This is inherent to ALL beliefs. Look closely at the belief: "Don't tell others how to live." What it is also saying is, "YOU must NOT tell others how to live, even if you think it is okay to do so." Ultimatly what happens is people who don;t want others' moral forced on them force their own morals on others. Now that doesn't seem fair to me. > Again, I care little about the world of the 'strip-joint' - must >be >my advancing age - - but I do believe that if you don't like 'em, don't >patronize 'em. Here here. >And if you want to spend your money away on lap dances, that's your >own >business -- just like it's your own business if you want to be a > >lap-dancer. Again the original question is whether or not this is an ethical choice. If it is NOT an ethical choice should we do nothing or should we encourage the person to find a better job? Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: DWall1008@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:51:28 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #360-Ethics in Martial Arts Just wanted to respond to Kim. First of all I have left the previous school of which the owner/instructor has digressed in all of the areas of tax evasion and medical fraud. Second of all I was just pointing out that students as well as instructors do things both inside and outside of the school which one could perceive and unethical and unlawful in response to the postings of the recent subject. Third of all I have followed by conscious and reported this to the proper authorities. I do try to live my life by setting an example and "doing the right thing" (not whining). I only thought that making a point is also worthy of sharing as well as letting you know that we are all paying taxes and medical for someone who laughs about it in public. ( We are not talking about a little bit here and there, we are talking about not paying any taxes in over 20 years and getting free medical care [thousands) that you and I are paying for). Thanks for listening from a concerned citizen and student at a new school! ------------------------------ From: sarah@home-school.com (Sarah Pride) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:37:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Training Question >>>>How often and what type of training do you all do outside of class times. And How do you fit in in with a busy family life and full time job?<<<< Hrrm. Well, first I'll explain about the busy family life and job. My job isn't exactly full-time every day, but on the days I have it I work 9-5. I help out in my parents' business. The busy family life? I definitely have that, as there are six younger kids in my family and guess who's #1 babysitter? :) We're all homeschooled, so I also have schoolwork and help out as assistant teacher of the Munchkins (my two littlest sisters). Anyway, I do some type of exercise every single day. On the days right after my TKD classes I am usually too sore to really get into kicking our WaveMaster around, so I stretch out (_very_ slowly :)), do some basic calisthenics such as crunches and pushups, and practice forms. That takes care of four days of the week. In the other three, I do a mish-mash of things. I practice TKD kicks and exercise for about an hour and a half on Friday and Sunday evenings, and on Saturday I just go rollerskating at a local rink for two and a half hours during the family session. Of course besides these times, there are lots of "unofficial" exercise times such as taking my little brothers and sisters out to the backyard and playing tag with them, or biking with a sister who's too young to go far by herself to visit a friend of hers. Summer's coming up, and that means swimming every day. As you can see, I don't think exercising has to be boring. :) >Anne >Yellow Belt (7th Gup) WTF TKD Don't you just love all these colors we guppies wear? I swear, at the tourney I competed in, there were a couple people with pink belts that had white stripes on them and blue belts with yellow stripes. Nobody can tell what level somebody from another school is at by looking at their belt. :) Sarah Orange belt (7th Gup) WTF TKD ------------------------------ From: Kas001@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:25:56 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Ethics in the martial arts In a message dated 5/26/2000 10:51:28 AM Central Daylight Time, DWall1008 writes: > First of all I have left the previous school of which the owner/instructor > has digressed in all of the areas of tax evasion and medical fraud. > Second of all I was just pointing out that students as well as instructors > do things both inside and outside of the school which one could perceive and > unethical and unlawful in response to the postings of the recent subject. > Third of all I have followed by conscious and reported this to the proper > authorities. I do try to live my life by setting an example and "doing the > right thing" (not whining). > I only thought that making a point is also worthy of sharing as well as > letting you know that we are all paying taxes and medical for someone who > laughs about it in public. ( We are not talking about a little bit here and > there, we are talking about not paying any taxes in over 20 years and getting > free medical care [thousands) that you and I are paying for). > > Thanks for listening from a concerned citizen and student at a new school! Good for you! It is always nice to see people stand up for their principles. There are too few folks out there who are willing to do so. My motivations are the same as yours. Given the situation as described to discuss it in the light of the ethics thread. Others have pointed out that they cannot be the moral arbiters for all, but obviously there are situations, such as the one you described, that demand action before so that they do not drag others down. Unfortunately, there are many who would not have taken the actions you did. Instead continuing in a "hopeless situation" which is in fact made hopeless only by their inaction. I truly feel that this is a problem that goes far beyond martial arts to the very heart of personal responsibility. Perhaps someday, should someone on the list encounter a similar situation, they will pause and consider these discussions. Again, congratulations on your courageous response to an unfortunate circumstance. Good luck at your new school, - ---Kim ------------------------------ From: d.d.parker@juno.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:21:42 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Training Question Anne, IMHO, I think that the training that one does outside of class is as important as the training one does in class. I think it is important that individuals spend time outside of class woking on their general physical fitness including stretching, cardiovascular and strenght training. I know that the regimes of many dojangs incorporate elements of this into the class structure, but it is not the same as spending an hour in the weight room several times a week or a daily early morning jog. I also feel that it is important to work on class skills at home as well. This reinforces what we learn in the dojang and gives us extra time to work on things which we find difficult. You don't really need to spend a lot of time here. You will be amazed at the improvement that you can make by just spending twenty minutes a day on something that you find particularly tricky. Another idea is to have a "daily dozen" of specific basics or exercises which you do everyday at a specific time (so it becomes a habit). This need not be elaborate either. Just pick a few basics, and work on them daily with the dual aims of getting a workout and perfecting your technique. Also, look into using your time creatively. For example, do five minutes of strength exercises in the morning when you arise and work on your abs and stretch out for ten minutes before you go to bed in the evening. Efforts such as these can yield noticeable results in a short amount of time. As far as balancing a hectic schedule that includes work and family, I can sympathize with you on this. It can be difficult to meet all of our obligations. You need to remember though, that one has an obligation to ones self as well. You will be a much better mother, spouse, employee, daughter, sister, friend, whatever, if you take care of your needs as part of your list of obligations. This may require some adjustments on your part and the part of others, but you should sit down, figure out a training schedule, preferably with the input of those who may be affected by it, and stick with it. Make it a priorioty to yourself to not let anything interfere, except in the most extreme circumstances. If it is only twenty or thirty minutes a day or every other day, so be it! I hope that these suggestions may give you some ideas. Good luck in your training! Daniel ------------------------------ From: Joan Bostic Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:43:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Torn ACL Well, ouch! I landed a lateral jump poorly and completely tore my ACL two days before my 4th Gup test. (Very depressing.) I'm looking for some member experiences with torn ACL's and reconstructive surgery. How long did it take before you were able to train? How long before you regained a competitive form. Are you comfortable with the reconstructed knee? Did you have any collateral damage beside the ACL? Any experiences or information you can provide are greatly appreciated. Joan Bostic 5th Gup (still... sigh), TSD ------------------------------ From: Tim Bruening Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:57:21 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: 1st Purple Belt Stripe! Last night, I received my first Purple Belt Stripe! ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: US - Memorial Day Wishing those in the US a thoughtful Memorial Day. Ray ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #361 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.