From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #379 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 6 June 2000 Vol 07 : Num 379 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Ko-Dang/Juche the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #376 the_dojang: When in Rome write like a Canadian... the_dojang: Pressure points and blocking the_dojang: Fwd from GM Timmerman Re: PP's & Blocks the_dojang: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #378 the_dojang: More Juche the_dojang: Re: Hai Dong Gumdo the_dojang: Re: Body Solid/Pro Smith Home Gyms the_dojang: American at Korean Tournament the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #376 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #378 Re: the_dojang: When in Rome write like a Canadian... [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 900 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Piotr Bernat Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 00:14:23 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ko-Dang/Juche > However, the statement the Gen. Choi is > "embracing North Korea more and more" is somewhat of a stretch. Maybe, but if it`s not for politics, why did gen. Choi name a new pattern after the Kim Il Sung`s ideology which, by the way, led North Korea into a disaster? Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: PWin18@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:12:47 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #376 In a message dated 05/06/00 13:37:19 GMT Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: "Gecko K. Martial Arts" Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 23:46:15 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Question sent to me Hi, I was sent this question and would love to pass on some of your views to this person. Thank you, Sandy "I am 47 years old and would like to study martial arts. I am in excellent shape I lift weights and do heavy aerobic work. what can I expect from Karate. My friends say Iam too old but the way I look at it in ten years I will be more flexible and agile than my friends. I studied 30 years ago but had too quit for lack of money due to family problems. I now have time and money and would like your input. Am I wasting my time in your opinion,could you shed some light for me?" >> I think this shows great Martial Arts spirit and I would argue that your friend is certainly not too old to start karate. There is no age limit. Surely, martial arts is about mastering yourself - whatever stage in life you are at! Anyway, that is the way I see it. Comments welcome. In our club we have all ages and abilities. Although the concentration is younger we have one lady who is in her early sixties and now a 4th Gup. She did struggle a bit at first but she has made a great deal of progress and looks better for it. I am quite impressed and she shows some of the other juniors how it is done from time. Tell your friend to stop deliberating and start training! Yours in Tang Soo Do! Peter Wingard ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:12:20 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: When in Rome write like a Canadian... The World Hai Dong Gumdo Federation is the group I am affiliated with so your report fills me with joy. I'm glad to hear that they are getting out and about. I'm sorry to hear about the poor translation. I can write out the terms in "English" but I warn you I do not use standard romanization. Most of the commands are simple Korean but one or two commands are 'uncommon' Chinese words which sometimes need to be clarified to Korean students. So, to start: STANCES: "sae" "jasae" gi-ma-sae: horse stance so-do-sae: low stance (short sword stance) teh-do-sae: front stance (long sword stance) cha-yon sae (choong dan sae): natural stance kyon-jok sae: guard stance, combines with other stances (eg: so-do kyon-jok sae) koom-gae-dok-lip pal sang sae : Crane stance, basis for eight direction tactics vs multiple attackers cho-chon sae (sang-dan sae): front stance with sword raised overhead for mult-directional cuts ji-ha sae: earth stance, defensive posture with blade downward **jasae paqua-sah: change your stance to the opposite direction (very terrible spelling of this) SWORD HANDLING: pal-do: drawing ch'ak-gum: sheathing baegi: cut (slash) ee-aw baegi: paired cutting (eg: so-do sae, ee-aw baegi) yun-sok baegi: continuous cutting chon-hoo baegi: forward and backward cutting chigi: strike CUTS: baegi chung-myun (naera) baegi: center (down) cut cha-oo (naera) baegi: left-right cut sam-dan (naera) baegi: center, left, right cut hweng-dan il gum: horizontal cut (for single edged sword) kwang-ja baegi: kwang (ja) is the chinese character for light. This cut combines the previous cuts into seamless motion. You described it as six way cutting but it also incorporates defensive positioning. That's a breakdown of the basic elements. If it's too hard to read let me know and I'll break down and use one of the dreadful "systems of romanization." Anthony Boyd http://victorian.fortunecity.com/operatic/739 ------------------------------ From: Bill Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:58:19 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Pressure points and blocking > >A friend of mine told me something about blocks which >I thought was interesting. Apparently in some other >forms of martial arts (i.e not Taekwondo) such a thing >as a block does not exist - it is tought as a 'block' >but is actually a strike to presure points. Could >anybody confirm or deny this? And I was wondering has >anybody heard about this in TaeKwondo (ITF or other)? Hello all, I am new to the Digest and this is my first posting. So if I am not following the correct format please guide me gently to the correct procedure ;-) I am an ITF TKDer and a Hapkido Student/Instructor. We train that a block is not just a block. It serves several purposes for us. A block is and in itself only a wasted effort if it does nothing to end the conflict. We train the "Tool to Target" which would be to inflict damge to the offending limb of the attacker. Hopefully to at least create hesitation enough to take control of the situation. This means that if we connect with the pain points and can make use of pressure points, it is a gift along the way but not the the primary means to the end. We train to create the habit and ability but realize that the pressure of the real conflict rarely works like the training hall practice. Also we use the redirection, parry, trapping type training, where a block is an entry to limb destruction, takedown, throw, strikes, kicks, or a finish of choice. Sometimes doing no more than slapping the strike out of the intended path as we enter past to the body itself from the angle inside or outside. I hope this helps, Regards, Bill ------------------------------ From: "Ron Bain" Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 23:12:56 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Fwd from GM Timmerman Re: PP's & Blocks Hi everyone. Below is a forwarded message from GM Timmerman, while he tries to rectify some minor technicalities. Ron From GM Timmerman: This is a reply to the martial artist who asked whether blocks are strikes to pressure points or simply blocks. In our particular martial art "Kong Shin Bup", we attempt to minimize all motion and maximize the results of our efforts. Therefore, as a student progresses, our blocks do indeed become strikes to pressure points whenever the opportunity exists. While we do teach blocks as blocks (or deflections) at the earlier levels in our art, we encourage students to maximize any counter by using pressure points. In fact, we also use pressure points in our joint locks and other manipulations of the opponent's extremeties. Kong Shin Bup students and Kuk Sool students will both disable an opponent's arm by "blocking" an incoming punch or attempted grab, and I am sure that there are other arts that make use of the same opportunities. You'd be surprised how effective such blocks can be. Having been on the recipient end of such blocks by my late Grandmaster, I can assure you that they are most effective and use little effort. I hope this will help answer your question. Rudy W. Timmerman ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:17:08 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #378 > From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand > >Robert Martin: > >Gen. Choi's thought (this from his own mouth) was to make a more > >difficult pattern at a lower dan level when folks are still able > >to perform the more difficult kicks. Juche is one of the three > >patterns learned for testing for 3rd dan. > > Everyone who has seen or performed Juche can agree to this obvious point. Indeed; Kodang was rather easy. They wanted to up the difficulty at 2nd Dan, and rather obviously succeeded. > However, isn't it just too obvious that he chose the personal > philosophy of North Korean dictator Kim Il Sung as the name and > philosophy for the pattern? It is not. Juche is defined as: "Juche is a philosophical idea that man is the master of everything and decides everything, in other words, the idea that man is the master of the world and his own destiny. It is said that this idea was rooted in Baekdu Mountain which symbolizes the spirit of the Korean people. The diagram represents Baekdu Mountain." (straight from the ITF web site) If, as others have said, Juche means "self reliance", that seems a perfectly reasonable philosophy for a martial art to espouse. If, as may be the case (I personally don't know squat about N. Korea), some nut-case dictator latches on to that phrase, it doesn't change the intended meaning. > Juche is his own twisted version of communism - the system that > lets children and women starve to death by the ten-thousands. No argument here - the N. Korean government is crazy. > This must have been done for two possible reasons (or both): > 1) Gen Choi agrees to the Juche philosophy (which suddenly makes > ITF TKD quite political) The General has fought his whole life against the kind of thing North Korea is doing to its people. I don't think so. > 2) This was done as a tactic to allow for ITF TKD being taught in > North Korea. As you might know, all martial arts were forbidden > prior to 2this. Nope. The ITF has been quite strong in North Korea forever. ;-) I've met some of the high-ranked North Korean black belts. They're all, without exception, A) exceptionally pleasant people, and B) exceptionally awesome martial artists. ;-) Also, remember that the General's birth-place happens to be in North Korea. He has a lot of personal ties there. He visits there a lot; also, the Jr. National Championships are in N. Korea this year. The ITF in N. Korea is not a new situation. > This makes ITF/Choi a an ideological prostitute. This is simply insulting. I won't dignify it with an answer. > So he is either a supporter of one of the most cruel communist > regimes in the world or he is selling out his ideals to dictators - > or maybe both or a combination. I mean - he could have called his > new form something different, but he didn't. That tells a whole lot > and was definitely not done by accident. Again, nope. I have personal evidence that the General, and the ITF as a whole, disapproves of the North Korean govt.'s policies as much as the rest of us. Unfortunately, I am not at liberty to pass this information on (it was in a conversation with Grand Master Hwang). You can decide to take my word for it, or not. Those who have been around the_Dojang for a while know who I am, and can make their own decisions about taking my word for it or not. Given the vitriol you're spouting above, I don't expect to convince you. > Nice guy! NOT! Nice guy? I don't know, I've only met him twice. Honorable guy? Absolutely. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:21:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: More Juche > From: Robert Martin [...] > Juche was introduced into the ITF pattern set in the early 1980 > (1983 I believe). It is a much more difficult pattern than > Kodang. Gen. Choi's thought (this from his own mouth) was to make a > more difficult pattern at a lower dan level when folks are still > able to perform the more difficult kicks. Juche is one of the three > patterns learned for testing for 3rd dan. Right. Juche is definitely a "teen-ager's" form; all of us old guys with knee problems just hobble through it the best we can. ;-) > Preparing for take shelter from the flames You and me both. ;-) There are those determined to think the worst of the General. Ignore them; there's nothing you can do, except to let them remain ignorant. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Scott Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:51:37 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hai Dong Gumdo I must agree with Master. Terry. The Hai Dong seminar was great fun. And it was a great pleasure to finally me the man the myth the Legend that is Master Ray Terry. I was not disappointed. I actually spent the first day thinking "Ray Terry? Ray Terry? Where have I heard that name before?" The space was tight. Master Kwon mentioned that they had twice the turn out that they expected. But we managed. The most damage was done to the roof, walls and wavemasters around us. As for additional training it will be tricky. From what I got from Master Park who was working with us the "beginner" group. Which included at least four people over the rank of 5th dan. :-) They don't have an actual school here in the US. Master Park and Master Lee are traveling around the US teaching seminars to build interest for Hai Dong Gumdo here. They require that those that attend the seminars are already Dan ranks. They want to teach Instructors and have the instructors add Hai Dong to their schools courses. Several of Master Kwon's senior Instructors already have several dozen hours training in Hai Dong. Most from time spent in Korea. I believe they will be teaching the classes that Master Kwon said they will not be having every Sunday. With Master Lee dropping in on occasions for more advanced training. (That was just my take Ray you may be right I'm not sure.) I do know that Master Park is looking to move to Texas. He is currently training all around the eastern US. I thought Master Lee was going to stay on the eastern half and he was going to start training the western half. (but again there was a large communication gap for such topics) What was neat was the way Master Park was able to teach without much english at all. Even when there was no interpreter I was able to understand the meaning of what he was teaching. And that included concepts not just movements. For me it meant I had to really focus to be able to get what he was talking about. I enjoyed it, but I'm just weird that way. Ray wrote: > Only one of the instructors spoke a little English, but > we made out ok. However I'm wondering if you can help get some of the > terms/commands romanized? I heard the commands, but cannot learn very > well that way. I need to see it romanized to remember it. Things like > six way cutting, draw the sword, put the sword back, straight cutting, > left/right cutting, straight/left/right cutting, turning defense, > turning cutting, cross cutting, etc. The basics. Does that sound > like the basic basics?? Mr. Willoughby, can you add more? That's most of them. I would add stepping to front, back, left and right. Defensive position. Attack position. Parts of the sword, And the shuffle in stances. While I can't recall what any of the terms were, I was usually able to jump in the right direction when Master Park yelled them. (kind of a Pavlov's dog response.) Masters Kwon did say that they are working on a manual to hand out in the next few months. I left him my name and asked that he let me know when it was available. I think that many of the commands used are more specific to the style and won't be an exact translation. For instance even with all the turns we did I didn't hear "Torah" once. They do have a web site but it is currently only in Korean. In all it was a very good experance and I'm Hoping to get more training in Hai Dong Gumdo. The only bad part was the drunken brawl that broke out in the lobby of my hotel at 1am and kept me up all night with police sirens. :-) Scott ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:44:59 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Body Solid/Pro Smith Home Gyms << Those fitness trainers (e.g., Alain Burrese) out there please give me a shout. Thanks, >> Ken, Off hand, I am not familiar with these particular brands. It is wise to have a set up that will aid you if you don't have a spotter present. It is also wise to make sure any equipment you use is safe all the way around. That means quality construction, equipment that can handle more weight than you can, solid base so it can't tip or fall on you, etc. Also, it needs to be comfortable to you. There are some benches out there that are well made, etc., but I just don't like the feel of them. Again, the keys are safety and using whatever you invest in. Lifting gallon milk jugs filled with shot will do more good than thousands of dollars worth of equipment getting dusty with no use. Alain ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: American at Korean Tournament In the summer of 1995 I was at a tournament headed by GM In Hyuk Suh in Pusan. I remember a Korean Master who lived in the U.S. had brought over this American guy to enter him in the tournament. This young man was an outstanding martial artist who did well in forms and locking techniques. But what really caught my eye was how he was beating the majority of the Koreans in sparring. He finally finished second which was an amazing feat. I noticed that he was advised to stop using hands or striking techniques to the face. He was extremely quick with his hands and it appeared to me he could score at will on the Korean opponents who did not use their hands as effectively. Yes, the Koreans had great feet, which the American matched, but it was the striking techniques with the hands that made him an outstanding opponent. I then have read & heard that this is a weakness in some Korean martial arts like Tae Kwon Do. Is this a true statement or just one special athlete doing his thing ? Finally, when in Korea note that many Koreans use their legs much more than Americans. When visiting the markets note the Koreans actually sitting in a catchers position eating. Note the toilets in many places that have no toilet bowl but just a hole type structure in the floor where you must squat over it. Seriously, these things result in a culture having much more flexible and powerful legs. Any comments on this or am I off base ? Cheers, McD... P.S. When at a Korean baseball game the vendors sell squid versus hotdogs. Go figure. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 02:41:16 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #376 In a message dated 6/5/00 5:37:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I've been extremely busy the past few weeks since my knee surgery...and haven't been able to get through all the digests. >> Silke, How is the knee? How is the school doing? Did you take some time off from your job and the school to recover or ??? Do you need any help with anything ?? I am only 90 minutes away ... just holler ! Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 03:05:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #378 In a message dated 6/5/00 8:29:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << some recommendations for good books dealing with pressure points and their manipulation. I am looking to try to expand my knowledge and library, and I'm sure some of you have some books >> Dragon Society International This is one of my favorite sites ... I have some of their books and tapes and I think they are great .... Also .... check out Vince Morris and Patrick McCarthy. Illona ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 4:47:56 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: When in Rome write like a Canadian... > STANCES: "sae" "jasae" > gi-ma-sae: horse stance > so-do-sae: low stance (short sword stance) > teh-do-sae: front stance (long sword stance) > cha-yon sae (choong dan sae): natural stance > kyon-jok sae: guard stance, combines with other stances (eg: so-do kyon-jok > sae) > koom-gae-dok-lip pal sang sae : Crane stance, basis for eight direction > tactics vs multiple attackers > cho-chon sae (sang-dan sae): front stance with sword raised overhead for > mult-directional cuts > ji-ha sae: earth stance, defensive posture with blade downward > > **jasae paqua-sah: change your stance to the opposite direction (very > terrible spelling of this) > > SWORD HANDLING: > pal-do: drawing > ch'ak-gum: sheathing > baegi: cut (slash) > ee-aw baegi: paired cutting (eg: so-do sae, ee-aw baegi) > yun-sok baegi: continuous cutting > chon-hoo baegi: forward and backward cutting > chigi: strike > > CUTS: baegi > chung-myun (naera) baegi: center (down) cut > cha-oo (naera) baegi: left-right cut > sam-dan (naera) baegi: center, left, right cut > hweng-dan il gum: horizontal cut (for single edged sword) > kwang-ja baegi: kwang (ja) is the chinese character for light. This cut > combines the previous cuts into seamless > motion. You described it as six way cutting but > it also incorporates defensive positioning. > > That's a breakdown of the basic elements. If it's too hard to read let me > know and I'll break down and use one of the dreadful "systems of > romanization." Great! Thanks! There was also a minimini-form. It started with center/left/right cutting, then down to a cross cross cut, gum up to a right side block/defense, diagonal cut, then up to a left side block/defense, then a diagonal cut to the other side. Do you know that name? Scott W., can you add more descriptions of the things we did in hopes of getting more Roman/Canadian out of Anthony? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 04:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #379 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.