From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #381 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 7 June 2000 Vol 07 : Num 381 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #380 the_dojang: CONGRATS the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #380 the_dojang: "Juche" and "Sopstvene snage" the_dojang: Romadian Chinean seeks spell-checker the_dojang: Mu Do in North Korea the_dojang: Fwd: Don "The Dragon" Wilson at 45 the_dojang: Choi supporting communism? the_dojang: Info on United States Martial Artist Ass. [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 900 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gecko K. Martial Arts" Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 15:51:27 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #380 John P. Oss 1st Dan ITF TKD CONGRATULATIONS. Now you can have the time of your life:) Sandy(A TKD Black belt in Victoria BC) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Gecko K. Martial Arts" Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 15:51:37 PDT Subject: the_dojang: CONGRATS John P. Oss 1st Dan ITF TKD CONGRATULATIONS. Now you can have the time of your life:) Sandy(A TKD Black belt in Victoria BC) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Will Lowe Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #380 > memory serves, I noticed most of the WTF school students sparring with their > hands at their sides and\or much lower than I would have expected for > defensive purposes). I also think that the WTF does not allow hand strikes > to the face. The same was true at the Tang Soo Do school I studied at. The general feeling was that legs are so much longer than arms, and we stressed foot techniques so much more than hand techniques, that noone ever got close enough to score with their hands. Then they'd fight someone who was _quick_ (I mean REALLY quick), and get clobbered with punches. :) Will - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | harpo@udel.edu lowe@cis.udel.edu lowe@debian.org lowe@asel.udel.edu | | http://www.cis.udel.edu/~lowe/ | | PGP Public Key: http://www.cis.udel.edu/~lowe/index.html#pgpkey | - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Marko or Mitar" Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 01:37:36 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: "Juche" and "Sopstvene snage" Mr. Anders Torvill Bjorvand wrote: Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 20:46:05 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Juche again > Mr. Steffens - it is clear to me that you have misunderstood this greatly. > I will try to explain and document this once and for all: > > Juche is not a general philosophy that both Kim Il Sung and Gen. Choi > happen to like. Juche philosophy was invented and introduced by Kim Il Sung > in person. The harmless definition of it in the ITF encyclopedia is not the > authoritative reference here - the authoritative reference is the guy who > invented this philosophy and lead his country through it. Juche or > self-reliance is the reason why Kim Il Sung refused to accept international > support with foods, clothes and medicine - with the direct consequence that > tens of thousands died of famine and disease. > > If juche was just another eastern philosophy that both Choi and Kim Il Sung > happened to adopt, I would not see such a great problem either. However - > this is not so. Juche is Kim Il Sung's toy and can not be viewed > independent from in and the sufferings of the average North Korean. > Adapting Juche as the name and philosophy of an otherwise splendid pattern > is an insult to both the people of North Korea that suffer under Juche > leadership and to ITF Taekwon-Do practitioners everywhere who don't know > what regime of terror their pattern really symbolizes. I've been reading very carefully those letters on this thread, and I completly agree with Mr. Bjorvand. I think that Mr. Steffens totally misunderstood this. I will only say that situation in my country (Serbia) is very similar to that in North Korea. "Juche" in Korean is equal to "Sopstvene snage" in Serbian language. It is a term that our dictatorship regime is trying to put into our minds. It means that we should renew and rebuild our country, exclusively with our resources, which was totally destroyed in last year's NATO bombing, what is impossible. It also implies that everything coming from "The feelty West" is "an agressor", "an enemy", "wants to destroy our country and our president", even though it is food, medicine, or humanitarian relief. I'm sure that for the millions of Serbian people, it wouldn't be only an insult, but the most disrespectful and unbelievable thing to do, if anyone named anything "Sopstvene snage" (equal to Juche). It is one of the most disliked, feelty and disgusting terms in Serbia. I think that it is unbelievable that Gen. Choi named a pattern after the name which symbolizes tens of thousands deaths of babies, old men and women... Horrible. Sincerely, Milic Mitar ----------------------------------------------- If you want to know anything about Tae Kwon Do, please visit us at: http://home.drenik.net/tkwd ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:13:10 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Romadian Chinean seeks spell-checker Ray and Scott, I'm really enjoying hearing about your reactions to the seminar. I certainly was not surprised to hear the reference to "demolishing" the room. I did expect to hear a comment or two about our form of the horse stance however... ;} There are some variations in the terms and commands from region to region but it seems pretty consistant to my ears when we travel about. In HDG we use the term for change (paqua or perhaps pakwa is better) when having a student turn in a standing stance. "jasae pakwa sa" will be called and everyone reverses their stance. When learning forms or drills the commands are more conversational and will be like 'turn 45 degrees and enter cha-yon kyun-jok sae". Moving cuts are identified by stance name and type of cut. For example, the natural stance, double cut (first to wrist and second a full cut) while stepping forward and back is called: cha-yon sae ee-aw baegi. Natural stance, double cut. The same cutting action paired with the low stance is so-do-sae ee-aw baegi. Ray, the "mini-mini form" you asked about is in my list. That is "The light cut" - kwang ja baegi. Scott found some good stuff I left out so... Stepping to a specific direction is done simply by saying that direction as a verb: "cha-ro (go left), oo-ro (go right) , twee-ro (go back), ap-ro (go forward)." To ask a student to advance a set number of steps would be (forward 3 steps) ap-ro sam-bo or in other (more active) situations - ap-ro sam-hae. Deflections with the sword are called "mag-go" We try to avoid blocking. In kwang-ja baegi for example the blade is angled downward and back over your shoulder so the force is redirected. A deflection on your left would be "cha mag-go". The parts of the sword are: gum-ko - point (sword nose) gum-pae - flat (sword belly) gum-nal - sharp edge gum-toong - unsharpened edge (sword back) gum-mag-gae - guard gum-goot - pommel/bottom of handle gum-charro - handle common alternates: gum-morae - pommel son-ja-mae - handle I guess I know what I will be adding to my website *this* weekend. Anthony Boyd - http://victorian.fortunecity.com/operatic/739 ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:15:20 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Mu Do in North Korea >>>I am no expert on North Korea, but untill Choi came along, I am pretty sure that martial arts were forbidden - several very uptodate taekwondoists have told me so. Officers of the North Korean defense might be an exception. Can anybody fill in on this?>>> The North Korean government was (and still is) rather strict in determining who amongst its citizenry would have access to martial art training. The martial arts, using a ridgid heirarchical structure and demanding obedience and discipline, might be seen as something that Kim Il-sing's totalitarian government could use to further discipline the citizenry. But remember that there were already effective measures in place to make sure that people behaved themselves and thought like they were told--martial arts might be more of a liability than a boon, as it could give potential rebels the tools and confidence to strike out against the oppressive government. As with the Soviet Union, China, etc. young children showing the bud of talent in certain areas were often chosen as candidates for special training schools (military, sports, scientific, artistic, etc.). Those attending military academies studied a combination of TKD & Hapkido. From "The Tears of My Soul", the Autobiography or former N. Korean agent Kim Hyun-hee we can read: "Our martial arts training derived from a variety of styles, all of them Korean, including Tae Kwan Do [sic], Tung Soo Do [sic], and Hapkido. These similar but distinctstyles had been molded into a hybrid martial art, which was used to train the agents. Our belt system progressed as follows: White for beginners, and then Yellow, Green, Blue, Red, Brown, and then ten degrees of Black. There were few martial artists alive who had legitimately reached the upper Black Belt degrees, but out instructor, Kai Cheon, was Fifth-Degree in each of the three Korean arts. After three years of training, we had all reached at leat First Degree, but afterward it generally took years to attain each successive degree." (1993:40) From this we could ascertain that martial arts was a tool given to those who were already considered very trustworthy. Keep in mind too, that a Nation as poor as N. Korea simply doesn't have the resources or wealth to devote itself to mass training programs for most of its children as do some other nations. Kids in North Korea spend much of their time learning about Kim Il-sung's life and deeds. Every moment is accounted for, and very structured, with little chance for outside influence (from say, open minded parents, tutors,clergy, even talkative strangers on the bus--any of the things we take for granted over in these parts). Of this, Kim Hyun-hee says in her book, "All students were enrolled in extracurricular activities with an ideological bent, and these were so intensive that we would often not come home until ten at night"(16). Most of these activities were described as community works activities--collecting dung for farmers, picking up litter or recycleables, collecting flowers to decorate the many statues of Kim Il-sung scattered throughout the town, etc. N. Korea does have an accelerated sports academy which has included judo for years (Many N. Korean Judoka have done well in international competition), and more recently, olympic style tae kwon do (to differentiate from all-ITF type sparring--I do not know how this is connected w/ S. Korea). I see some problems in N. Korea's way of doing things. Most noteably, the amount of time wasted simply focusing on the Accomplishments & writings of Kim Il-sung (and now his son). Useful for indoctrinating & controlling? Yes, of course--control and limit knowledge, & you control the people (~remember this next time you have an instructor who's definition of "loyalty" includes not watching or participating in the seminars or events of another teacher or style! You are being controlled and indoctrinated!). But not so good for creating well rounded and innovative individuals--and technological advancement often relies upon innovation. Also, the early detection method of seeking athletic or academic talent in youngsters ignores anybody who happens to be a late bloomer by a few months or year. Kim Il-sung did not do his nation any favors by preaching self-reliance and then forcing his citizens to become grossely dependant on his bloated, deified image. As a result, the people have become dependant upon a government which is not even able to support them in times of famine, yet still demands total obedience. As with other totalitarian regimes, martial art training will remain a controlled special activity reserved for the hand picked few and trusted of the government. Diverting people's loyalty to different grandmasters of martial ideologies is not in N. Korea's best interest right now. When the people of N. Korea have the opportunity to shape their own destiny, I suppose we'll see just as many "traditional Korean Arts" come from there as from S. Korea. For other sources, Kim Hyun-hee's book "Tears of My Soul" (1993), Morrow Books, is teriffic. There is also a 2 part article about An American Martial Artists visit to N. Korea in a '80's issue of "Karate-Kung Fu Illustrated"--Chuck Seriff, I think, and a similar article in an early edition of TKD Times (I'll have to dig for it, if anyone's interested). Anyone have any more sources? Have a Spiffy Day, Chaney ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Fwd: Don "The Dragon" Wilson at 45 > So, I am sittin on the couch flicking the remote. The TV screen has ESPN > on. Low and behold-- a Muay Thai match between Don Wilson and some other > lesser known fighter. Apparently Don Wilson has a 72 and 5 record. He > started out in the 70's ? He is now 45. > > Well, after seeing that I ran to the bathroom took a few swigs of Geritol > and then did some road work. Figured, heck I am only a few years older > than > him and I am better looking. > > P.S. He won the match. > > McD... > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! > http://photos.yahoo.com > Once we discover a common ground, the walls of difference begin to fall. ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:00:31 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Choi supporting communism? >Dave Steffen: > Again, nope. I have personal evidence that the General, and the ITF > as a whole, disapproves of the North Korean govt.'s policies as much > as the rest of us. Unfortunately, I am not at liberty to pass this > information on (it was in a conversation with Grand Master > Hwang). You can decide to take my word for it, or not. I definitely believe that you have heard such information. However, what is your opinion of the following North Korean news article from North Korean News Agency of April 17th this year? http://new-www.kcna.co.jp/item/2000/200004/news04/17.htm#2 At least it indicates that your information is not correct (although one should take press releases from dictatorship news agencies with a grain of salt). Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: "Gecko K. Martial Arts" Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:18:03 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Info on United States Martial Artist Ass. General Request to all. Does anyone know of the "United States Martial Artist Association" run by William A. Rankin? Is it legitimate? I know of the United States Martial Arts association but not this other one. Thanks, Sandy ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #381 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.