From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #385 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 8 June 2000 Vol 07 : Num 385 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Lee vs Lee??? the_dojang: RE: Using Hands and Tang Soo Do the_dojang: Re: H.U. Lee the_dojang: Re: Lee's test the_dojang: Re: Regarding Blocks as Blows the_dojang: Re: North Korean Martial Arts the_dojang: Kim Farral's Opinions the_dojang: Hi, everyone Re: some tips Re: Basaisho form the_dojang: Those fly by night Martial Arts Associations Re: the_dojang: My Opinions the_dojang: Re: Grandmaster Lee the_dojang: Software for Martial Arts School Re: the_dojang: My Opinions the_dojang: sunny CA ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 900 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:14:24 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Lee vs Lee??? In a message dated 6/8/00 8:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Lee vs Lee??? >> That's a good point, maybe the story is untrue as it was told to me. As I recall, and this was over twenty years ago, the person was asking GM Lee a lot of questions about the experience and what it was like, etc., so he may not have volunteered the information. I think there was some judgment about Bruce Lees attitude along these lines, but you know how myths are generated in dojangs. jose' ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:18:49 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Using Hands and Tang Soo Do Will responded to this and wrote: > memory serves, I noticed most of the WTF school students sparring with their > hands at their sides and\or much lower than I would have expected for > defensive purposes). I also think that the WTF does not allow hand strikes > to the face. The same was true at the Tang Soo Do school I studied at. The general feeling was that legs are so much longer than arms, and we stressed foot techniques so much more than hand techniques, that noone ever got close enough to score with their hands. Then they'd fight someone who was _quick_ (I mean REALLY quick), and get clobbered with punches. :) Will Will, This is not the case in all Tang Soo Do dojangs. It depends on the instructor, and I suspect that it does in WTF dojangs as well. It probably has more to do with the focus of the instructor and school, ie, those focusing on self defense tend to use the hands more, but probably never as much as 50/50 or Japanese styles. Danny ------------------------------ From: Brett Erwin Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:40:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: H.U. Lee > While the next in line does appear to be 8th degree, Chief Master Soon Ho > Lee, I would imagine that he will be required to maintain the integrity and > repect the time in grade requirement (8 years), and also need to "test" for > his 9th degree as well. Until that time, while he may organizationally take > the place of GrandMaster H.U. Lee, in my opinion, I doubt he will be granted > the title and rank until he meets the necessary requirements. SH Lee received his 8th degree in '91. So his 8-year minimum wait is past. However, as you state, he will likely have to perform a public demonstration/test as well as likely obtain the approval from the other Masters to promote to Grand Master. It will be interesting to see how the "organizational structure" of ATA evolves. There are quite a few Masters, now. Each, I'm sure, with their own thoughts and opinions of the way things should be done. I only hope that they take their time and don't make any drastic changes that could cause a massive exodus of students, instructors, and masters. (Remember what happened when they changed the forms? - A good change, but talk about making waves...) > when he came from Korea, he and an American (Dick - dont recall his last > name) who met Mr Lee in the military in Korea and brought him to the US, Dick Reed - Now a 7th degree. > there by a man name Dale Craig who was also a fantastic martial artist. Dale Craig = Badass! - - Brett Erwin Allen, TX ------------------------------ From: Brett Erwin Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 09:04:42 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Lee's test >I am curious; how does one "test" before one's juniors for higher rank than >they supposedly hold? This seems incongruous with concept of a "test." This >sounds more like the description of a demonstration, than an exam, to me. >What do you all think? >SESilz I don't know if it was a true "pass/fail test" as much as it was merely a public demonstration. However, he *did* have to get the approval/permission from the ATA senior ranks (how many and whom, I don't know) to do the demo and move up to 9th degree Grand Master. I was there in 1990, and this is what he did... He began with a long form that was complied of segments from every colored belt and black belt form The last few moves of the form, I think, were unique to him that he designed. I the middle of the form a "bad guy with a knife" came out to attack him, after a few street-self-defense techniques the bad guy gave up and left while Lee finished his form. When he finished the form, and a bowed to the audience, a little white belt boy (who might have been 4 or 5 years old) walked on stage and and asked Lee to "break those two 2" thick boards". Referring to his "test", Lee then said to the boy, "what happens if I do not break, I cannot change?" The boy loudly said "no sir!" On the 2cd attempt (I think) Lee did a running jump side kick through the thick boards. The boy ran up and jumped into Lee's arms giving him a big hug. Very cute. - - Brett Erwin Allen, TX ------------------------------ From: d.d.parker@juno.com Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:01:41 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding Blocks as Blows <> Agreed. But my question is, how do you train for this in your school? My instructors say the same thing, but to me these are just words because my schools curriculum does not include any exercises for conditioning ones forearms, wrists and hands to handle the impact of such techniques. Without proper conditioning, one risks serious bruising, tendon damage and broken bones if one really uses ones blocks as strikes, especially if you meet force with head-on force, rather than as a deflection. I guess what I am wondering, does anyones curriculum out there incorporate training practices to condition ones body to block with such force while minimizing the risk on injury to the one blocking? Thanks, Daniel ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 13:40:50 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: North Korean Martial Arts Piotr, thanks for your very insightful post about Kyoksul and Juche. Once again I've learned something substantial from one of your contributions. And I agree 100% with your comments about the North Korean ideology and its unfortunate impact upon that nation. What can you tell us about Kyoksul? Was it an art similar to Taekwondo or Hapkido or was it something completely different? Was it easy to identify its influences? Jesse ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:59:19 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Kim Farral's Opinions Kim wrote: > Blocks and Pressure Points: Since when did Tae Kwon Do come from > Karate?...ever heard of Tae Kyon...very similar to what the USTU does > today Most of the oldtimers around here have heard this stuff too much, so I'll just point you to ViaMedia's website and tell you to look at my article on tkd history (vol. 6, no. 1) and then at Robert Young's article on T'aekkyon and of course Stanley Henning's article in the lastest issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts. Yes, I've done t'aekkyon, starting back in 1987. T'aekkyon influenced the transformation of tangsudo/kongsudo into t'aekwondo during the late 1950s and early 1960s from what I can tell. >...I would agree > that the use of hands combined with the foot techniques was taken from the > Japanese style of Karate...but not the forms...nor the art...the forms and > the art existed long before they were given names and organized > patterns... Partially right. Kwonbop (Chinese boxing, lit. "fist way") was around for a long time in Korea thanks to the influence of China. It is known in Mandarin as quanfa, in Okinawa as kempo, and in the Philippines as kuntao. As for the rest, well, you've got a lot of reading to do, and I imagine the rest of the list members are tired of hearing about all of this for the last decade! > Funny how Dillman (an American?...not familiar with him)... popularized > pressure points...something that (to my understanding, knowledge, and > training) has been a premise of martial arts in general for as long as > they have existed Yes. I said he popularized 'em. As in he put them in books, a big series of videos and did a ton of seminars. He caught a lot of flack for it too, not only because they were "secret" techniques, that weren't to be taught to lower rannks but also because some physical educators believed he was teaching techniques rather recklessly. See the Kyusho Digest for a recent discussion of all of this, and Dillman's reply. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: "M R" Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 14:12:54 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Hi, everyone Re: some tips Re: Basaisho form Hello, people, I've been subscribed for about a week and have enjoyed reading the new (and old)Digests. Thanks a lot >From: KAKAROT550@aol.com >Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:52:44 EDT >Subject: the_dojang: some tips > >I am a self-learned martal artist and i am very good but some times i >find >my >self messing up on my jumping spin kicks do you have any tips for me ? > >thanks >for your time . Heero uyi I am also a self-learning martial artist, just starting, and I would not claim to be very good, but here's a site that might help you: http://planetjubei.com/mazone/ >From: Stickfighter27@cs.com >Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:22:00 EDT >Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #382 >Hi, does anyone have any diagram or anything pertaining to the Basaisho > >form. Go to http://ryanshroyer.tripod.com He calls it Bassai-Sho, so I'm not sure if it's what you want. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Those fly by night Martial Arts Associations I am privately responding to two readers regarding a Martial Arts Association located in Frederick, Maryland. My comments below reflect my own opinion. If your students or your schools are being solicited by individuals who immediately promise rank promotions and other enticing items consider the source. Remember the expression that something too good to be true is usually not. There are many outstanding senior martial artists on these lists who are credible martial artists that have years of experience and integrity behind them. For example, Master West has his own organization. Having talked with several of the instructors under him they are truly pleased. That is the ultimate test. But you already knew that right ? McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:23:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: My Opinions On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Farral, Kim G wrote: > > > > Blocks and Pressure Points: Since when did Tae Kwon Do come from > > Karate?...ever heard of Tae Kyon...very similar to what the USTU does > > today...hands at the side...very limited hand techniques...I would agree > > that the use of hands combined with the foot techniques was taken from the > > Japanese style of Karate...but not the forms...nor the art...the forms and > > the art existed long before they were given names and organized > > patterns... > > The original Tae Kwon Do forms came pretty much out of the barrel from Shotokan Karate. The new forms were modified from the Shotokan forms. If you take a look at Gen. Choi, Hong-Hi's 1965 edition of his Tae Kwon Do book, you'll see the original forms. These are the same forms as most of the Moo Do Kwan and some other Tae Kwon Do groups do as well (Pyung-Ahn, Chulgi, Ship Soo, Pal-Sek etc). Remember that Korea was occupied by Japan from 1909 until 1945, they didn't allow indigineous martial arts to exist and didn't always allow Japanese martial arts either. The Korean's took Shotokan and started adding more complex and powerful kicking. Some of these new kicks probably did come from Tae Kyon. I beleive Shotokan at one point only had front, side, roundhouse, and back-kick. I think they've added new kicks in response to the kicks the Korean's came up with. Ax, wheel, crescent, hook, jumping etc. > > Funny how Dillman (an American?...not familiar with him)... popularized > > pressure points...something that (to my understanding, knowledge, and > > training) has been a premise of martial arts in general for as long as > > they have existed...The Korean term for pressure point (or so I was told > > by a Korean Master...assuming he understood my question) is Kyong Nok > > (have no idea how to spell it....but that's the way it was pronounced to > > me)...I am interested in knowing how it was that he popularized pressure > > points... > > Dillman is an American. Rick Clark is another one that does a lot of pressure point seminars. He's also got rank and experience in Tae Kwon Do. He says the Korean name for pressure point striking is "Keupso chigi". The thesis of Dillman and to a certain extent Rick Clark is that the traditional Okinawan forms were chock full of specialized pressure point strikes. And that the form gives you the location, angle of attack and sequence to activate various pressure points. However, in most cases although the form has this information, the application (specific pressure point strike) wasn't passed on. Because of that some of the more awkward moves in forms are interpreted as "some kind of funky block". In some cases if you try to do the "standard" interpretation of moves in forms you end up with something that really just does not work. There's a mountain block that interpreted as blocking something from both sides. But, if you try to use it that way -- it's really awkward. A pressure point interpretation looks at it as a bunch of pressure point strikes intermingled with an arm-break. Another example is the Kwan-soo (kinfe-hand spear strike). This is ussually given as a block followed by a spear-strike to solar plexus. A pressure point interpretation is as a strike to the LI point on the arm, followed by a palm-heel strike to pressure point on the side of the neck. Rick Clark has a book and some video's out, and he does seminars. I've found his book quite interesting. Erik Kluzek, (CGD at NCAR) National Center for Atmospheric Research Boulder CO, (off) (303)497-1326 (fax) (303)497-1324 - --------- Home page and public PGP key--------------- http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/~erik !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: "Brad Bezoni" Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:21:21 +0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Grandmaster Lee I haven't read the whole thread going on Grandmaster Lee, but let me address something: Grandmaster Lee gathered a panel of other internationally recognised Grandmasters of other styles - each ranked 9th degree/dan or higher - to test before. In terms of it being simply a demonstration, I offer this up - he performed an actual form different (and in my opinion harder) than any other form in the Songahm system, he sparred, he did knife defense (against a real knife), he broke boards, and he was awarded his rank by all those present on his testing panel. My regret is that I wasn't in TKD at the time, this would have been the ultimate testing to witness (but I get the next best thing, my original instructor is testing for 7th degree and I get to witness that one!). I know this may not change anyone's mind about GM Lee, but at the very least acknowledge that the man worked and EARNED the rank he holds today, no one gave it to him - especially not him. Respectfully, Brad Bezoni 2nd Degree, ATA ------------------------------ From: "Meyer, Carl" Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:52:10 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Software for Martial Arts School I'm looking for anyone who has used software specifically for martial arts schools, or even general purpose software. Due to a recent upheaval at our school, the head instructor is now pretty much doing everything. Paperwork is taking way too much of his time, so I am pushing him to automate. I'm checking out some of the software advertised, and sending away for demos, but there is no substitute for talking to people who have actually used it. So I'm open to any suggestions, recommendations, or warnings. I'd prefer Macintosh if possible, but since that isn't likely, I can dig up a suitable PC. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 16:33:50 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: My Opinions > Dillman is an American. > > Rick Clark is another one that does a lot of pressure point seminars. He's > also got rank and experience in Tae Kwon Do. He says the Korean name for > pressure point striking is "Keupso chigi". Rick is an acquaintance. I believe that he studied under Dillman. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: sunny CA Back home in sunny California. Except it is raining... Ray Terry ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #385 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.