From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #388 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 9 June 2000 Vol 07 : Num 388 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Kyoksul the_dojang: Hai Dong uniforms ? the_dojang: Re: When in Rome write like a Canadian... the_dojang: Re: Taekwon-Do as sport the_dojang: TKD History the_dojang: Re: Hai Dong Gumdo Seminars the_dojang: re: Hai Dong Gumdo stuff the_dojang: Re: Archaeology, History, and TKD the_dojang: Re: Origins of Taekwondo Re: the_dojang: TKD History Re: the_dojang: Re: Archaeology, History, and TKD the_dojang: Gum length ? ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 900 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Piotr Bernat Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 07:44:59 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kyoksul > What can you tell us about Kyoksul? Was it an art similar to Taekwondo or > Hapkido or was it something completely different? Was it easy to identify > its influences? Hi Jesse, I`m too young to experience Kyoksul on my own, but from what I heard from my former ITF instructors, it was similar to the old style ITF Taekwondo. The main difference was the fact that it was designed as a strictly self-defense style, a "Combat Taekwondo" you could say ;), so, there was a big part of "flashy" elements missing. There was a North Korean movie presented here in the late 80`s and some claimed that the actors really had Kyoksul experience, but to me it was very same as ITF TKD. Basically, it was a kicking & striking art, not too much into joint locks etc. When I was still in the ITF, we once met a Korean guy who was a 3rd Dan in both ITF TKD and Kyoksul. We tried to arrange a seminar, he even agreed, but it never happened. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 07:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Hai Dong uniforms ? Anthony, The uniforms that were brought from Korea (?) for the seminar were all black with "Hai Dong" and "Martial Art" (in English) written on the back of the uniform top. The top had two ties to hold the uniform closed at the chest. I noticed that those from Korea had a Navy Blue uniform top with velcro to hold the uniform top closed and they wore light checked pants. What type of uniform do you wear during practice? Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: Scott Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:49:40 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: When in Rome write like a Canadian... > Scott W., can you add more descriptions of the things we did in > hopes of getting more Roman/Canadian out of Anthony? :) Anthony thanks for the terms. those are the ones I remember hearing them yelling at me :-) The only other thing that I can think of is the names of the parts of the sword, and the names of the forms. Example the dull side of the blade was gum-nile, the tip was gum-ko or something like that. I'm writeing romanized/Canadian Greek ain't I. :-) Anthony where do you train at? Do you have regular classes? I really want to continue with this and get better but I'm not sure how to persue it as they don't have any place I can go to get instruction. Thanks again for the terms. Scott ------------------------------ From: "Carl W" Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:59:45 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Taekwon-Do as sport >From: "kadin goldberg" >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:04:15 MDT >Subject: the_dojang: One question. > >All have have is one question... is TKD only for sport? Recently I attended a seminar with Master Choi Jung Hwa and to paraphrase him: sports have coaches because they teach technical skills but in Taekwon-Do there are teachers because they are teaching you how to be a human being. I find these words to be very insightful (as well as meaningful), at least for myself. Listening to the many opinions and viewpoints expressed on this list, everybody obviously has their own valid purposes for, as well as gratifications from, studying Taekwon-Do. However, despite the differences and biases, I think that most would agree that 'you get out of it what you put into it'. Carl W. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:01:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: TKD History S.E. Silz wrote: > Undoubtedly there are many parallel, divergent and convergent paths going back to prehistoric times. Definitely! In fact, I tend to class these streams of instruction in the following way: 1. African: Capoeira, Nubian wrestling, etc. 2. Greco-Roman: Pankration, Boxing, Upright wrestling, etc. and their modern European descendants. 3. Islamic: Zoorkhaneh, Turkish wrestling, etc., and to a certain extent Silat and Kali. 4. Hindu: Mallakalla, Kalaripayattu, Silambam, etc., and to a certain extent Silat, Bersilat, and Thaing. 5. Chinese: Wushu, Gongfu, etc. and their Korean, Okinawan, and Japanese derivatives. Are there others? Of course. Wrestling seems a common factor no matter where you go in the world. But these five are the main continuous streams of instruction, IMO. > Nevertheless, may scholars credit Bodhidarma,and his tenure at the famed ShaoLin Temple, to be the epicenter from which gungfu spread, then igniting the various Chinese, Korean, Okinawan and eventually the Japanese systems of unarmed combat. Now here I think you go a bit astray. Because Bodhidharma's involvement with the arts was most likely a myth (pointed out by several researchers back in the 1960s and 1970s), and because the Koguryo tomb murals show martial activities, you assume that this invalidates the theory that Chinese gongfu was the "mother of all martial arts." In fact, you write: >Based on hard archeological evidence, however, it now appears that the combative systems that were practiced before the birth of Christ on the Korean peninsula significantly predate the artifacts of unarmed combat of Chinese GungFu What is this hard evidence? Can you cite books or articles? Where can we examine this evidence and come up with our own conclusions? I know all of us would like to. > In fact, there is more evidence indicating that these Korean systems are the actual 'mother arts' to the many styles I mentioned previously. Now this seems pretty improbable. The tomb murals you spoke of were in Koguryo kingdom, not South Korea for one thing. Secondly, Koguryo was the easternmost outpost of the Han dynasty and if you look at tomb murals in China of the same period, you see the same type of drawings. I certainly hope that you are not saying that China actually came from Korea. You are correct that we are very unsure about much of the history of martial arts before the twentieth century, but we can certainly say this much with certainty: 1. Korean tangsudo, kongsudo, subak, and t'aekwondo all derive directly from Japanese and Okinawan karate (mostly Japanese) thanks to the instruction received by Koreans in Japan during the 1920s-1940s. 2. Japanese karate came from Okinawa. Just read Gichin Funakoshi. 3. Okinawan karate came from Southern China. Check out Patrick McCarthy's work to learn more. We can also indicate that the traditional forms of Korean martial arts (unarmed) were t'aekkyon, ssirum, and kwonbop. T'aekkyon seems largely a Korean development. Ssirum seems somewhat derivative of Mongolian wrestling and may be the source for sumo. Kwonbop, when pronounced in Mandarin, is quanfa, which strongly indicates a Chinese origin or at least influence for the art, especially because the Muye Dobo Tongji was a copy of Chinese military manuals. > Finally, regardless of when and where taekwondo really began, the important thing to us should be where it is today, and what it offers to its adherents in our civilization. Certainly. The history of the art offers primarily its context, not its process or product. Ray Terry wrote: >But what are those murals, really? Of fighting? Dancing? Something else? No one will ever likely know for sure. I know I've said the same thing in the past Ray, but certainly the "Tomb of Wrestlers" does look like wrestling more than dancing. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Scott Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:07:31 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hai Dong Gumdo Seminars From: "Todd and Debi Deininger" Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:22:45 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hai Dong Gumdo Seminars Scott, would you happen to have a list of seminar locations. I have a kenjutsu background and would love to see the similarities and the differences. Todd Sorry Todd I wish I did. The only brochure they had has the phone number and address of the head quarters in Korea on it. but nothing on the us. They even have the lenght of training requirements and time for the classes at the korean head quarters. And a map of how to get there. Does anyone know where Sunnam-shi street is? One of the things that I was impressed about was that Master Park was really adimate that Real Hai Dong Gum Do is not about the cutting. It's about concentration and focus. The Idea that you are going to carry a wword and use it for defense is not logical today. So the art is about tradition, training and self improvement. I asked one of Master Kwon's senior students about fighting in Hai Dong Gum Do. Was the armor and every thing like that in Kendo. He told me that the don't use armor or pads. They use the regular wooden training swords, not the bamboo style. and they use control and medium force strikes. Scott ------------------------------ From: Scott Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:52:36 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: re: Hai Dong Gumdo stuff From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:52:20 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Hai Dong Gumdo stuff Actually, I mentioned the difference between our horse stance and the common horse stance but yes in the front stance (tae do sae) and many others we angle the feet to 45 degrees. In the horse stance our feet and knees are angled inward. I find it more difficult to maintain that the regular horse stance. It also provokes thoughts of oddly shaped horses. ;} I am told this stance is for a standing position when riding a galloping horse. All I can say is "short stirrups". <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> Yes the New horse stance was very interesting. I actually liked it till my knees got tired. But I'm hoping with more pratice I can get it as low as Master Park did. I do recall seeing something about that stance in Japanesse horsemanship. I think they should feed the horses more if they are shaped like that :-) The variation on the front stance is similar to what I was originally taught in Bassai form many years ago. Durring the seminar a few of us realized that when we did a full front stance we had to move our feet to change direction.(thus getting closer to hitting each other) And Master Park didn't. We then picked up on the idea of the feet being in line instead of offset. And then someone pointed out that his front foot didn't point to the front but at a 45. The whole day got much easier from that point on. Scott ------------------------------ From: "Carl W" Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 09:58:11 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Archaeology, History, and TKD >Based on hard archeological evidence, The only thing hard about archaeological evidence, as scientific data, is the artifacts themselves. Archaeological remnants are interpreted and speculated upon. They don't speak for themselves re: cause and effect. >those who say that taekwondo sprang >from karate, soobakdo, kungfu, tangsoodo, etc. are simply starting their >histories about 2000 years too late!!! Would it fair to say then that American history (or any other particular 'history' you choose) is actually European, Asian, and\or African history, and thats where Americans should begin their history? Or, would it start, more or less, with the political, economic, and technological circumstances of Europe which defined the need and provided the means for global exploration and colonialism? Or, would it start when Europeans found a land mass previously unknown to them and called it America? Alternatively, does American history start with the aboriginal peoples that pre-historically inhabited the area later defined as the USA? Or, would American history start with the founding and definition of a nation-state which refered to itself as America? One needs to identify the 'roots' or factors that infuenced the beginning of 'whatever' (whether it be America, the personal computer, or Taekwon-Do) but the 'history' of 'whatever' properly only starts when that 'whatever' has been identified as being something apart and identifible from that which it arose. > Finally, regardless of when and where taekwondo really began, the >important thing to us should be where it is today, and what it offers to >its >adherents in our civilization. > In my admittedly jaded viewpoint, WTF Taekwondo, offers its >practitioners >the best of traditional moo-do spirit and values, combined with >streamlined, >bio-mechanically efficient technical motions that are not mired by narrow >interpretation of how they should be done, but rather the product of a >worldwide synthesis offered by its unique Olympic status. > General Choi started developing his art in 1946. He submitted the name Taekwon-Do, as the name which he wanted to refer to his art by, to a group of his martial art peers, as well as government and military leaders. This name was accepted by that group on April 11, 1955. Later, the name became offically recognized by the Korean government. The history of Taekwon-Do has many influences. Some dating back thousands of years. Other influences, as General Choi has said, comes from Tae Kyon and Shotokan Karate. But the 'modern' history of Taekwon-do starts with General Choi. As well, the history of the "true and original" Taekwon-Do continues to this day with General Choi. And thats my jaded opinion. :-) Carl W. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:36:39 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Origins of Taekwondo In a message dated 6/9/00 10:07:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: SESilz writes in part: << It is probably just as revisionist, however, to say that the root of taekwondo is not originally Korean. You just have to look back far enough. In fact, there is more evidence indicating that these Korean systems are the actual 'mother arts' to the many styles I mentioned previously. >> This is a very interesting thread. I want to challenge one aspect of your reasoning though. It may be that martial arts in Korea preceded Kungfu development in China, and may have even been the mother or ultimate source of other Chinese and Okinawan arts. But it does not follow from this that Taekwondo emerged from these original Korean martial arts directly as opposed to being derived more directly from Shotokan Karate. It may be that the Korean martial arts were the oldest, but that the connection between modern Taekwondo and these original Korean arts was mediated through Karate. What I mean is that Karate was the more proximal and immediate or direct source of Taekwondo even if Japanese/Okinawan Karatedo has a more distant source in Korea. I am not well read in the history of martial arts, but I found the series of articles that Herb Perez published in Black Belt Magazine on this topic well written and persuasive. No one has mentioned these articles. He wrote the articles with the help of an academic historian living and teaching in Korea. He shows clearly that before the kwans were unified as Taekwondo, what was practiced in Korea was Japanese Karate, they used Japanese terminology and Japanese techniques. In terms of the complexity of kicks in Taekwondo, I am told by older Korean masters that in the very early days of Taekwondo even this art had very limited kicking, basically front and side kick, maybe some round kicks. Herb Perez and his coauthor argue persuasively that Taekwondo has a direct and immediate source in Shotokan and other forms of Karatedo and that it was subsequently nationalized and altered to become a Korean art, regardless of whether the older and more distant or ultimate source of the arts is Korean. I think that the possibility that martial arts development in Korea predated marital arts development in China, and the possibility that even Japanese Bushido may have developed from Korea very interesting and I would love to hear more about that if others here know more. But it has nothing to do with the more proximal and immediate source of Taekwondo being Karate. Finally, these arguments and theories about the ultimate origin of things are so politicized and caught up with nationalist feelings that they must be regarded skeptically. A friend of mine was at a ninth dan Korean Grandmaster's home about two years ago. The grand master is an educated man. There was a book there on the history of China and the discussion went to the origins in China of things like gunpowder and printing. The Grand Master said something like,"Oh yes it is very interesting, but Korea first, these things were developed first in Korea." My friend politely said nothing. It suggests to me that there is a strong cultural tendency in Korea to claim originality, perhaps as a matter of nationalist pride or loyalty. Jose' ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 8:54:58 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: TKD History > Ray Terry wrote: > > >But what are those murals, really? Of fighting? Dancing? Something else? > No one will ever likely know for sure. > > I know I've said the same thing in the past Ray, but certainly > the "Tomb of Wrestlers" does look like wrestling more than dancing. My ppint is just that one simply cannot claim that these are clearly paintings of people fighting. Maybe, maybe not. I recall the very first time I saw them and my reaction to the WTF's caption underneath claiming that the figures were fighting. I'm not saying they are dancing, just that we'll probably never know what they are actually depicting. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:41:36 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Archaeology, History, and TKD > The history of Taekwon-Do has many influences. Some dating back thousands of > years. Other influences, as General Choi has said, comes from Tae Kyon and > Shotokan Karate. But the 'modern' history of Taekwon-do starts with General > Choi. As well, the history of the "true and original" Taekwon-Do continues > to this day with General Choi. And thats my jaded opinion. :-) It does? Gen. Choi stood on the shoulders of the original Kwan founders. He got involved several years after the original five kwans (Moo Duk Kwan, Yon Moo Kwan, YMCA Kwon Bup, Chung Do Kwan, and Song Moo Kwan) were founded. Gen. Choi didn't get directly involved until the 1950s, several years later. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Gum length ? The wooden gums we used last weekend at the Hai Dong Gumdo seminar were 1.10 meters in length (marked 110 on the end). Do all adults use this length gum in their practice? Or does it vary a bit depending on the height of the practitioner in question? Ray Terry ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #388 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.