From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #390 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 9 June 2000 Vol 07 : Num 390 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #389 the_dojang: Dempsey's theory the_dojang: Re:Gen Choi the_dojang: In Sun Seo seminar Re: the_dojang: Dempsey's theory [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 930 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Danny Abramovitch Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 14:30:58 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #389 > From: Ray Terry > Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:25:33 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: the_dojang: Jack Dempsey book > > On yesterday's 1829 mile return flight from Illinois to California I > had a chance to read an old classic, Championship Fighting: Explosive > Punching and Aggresive Defence, by Jack Dempsey. ...stuff deleted ... > > All in all and excellent read and its 205 pages flew by (pun intended) in > far less time than United required to make the journey. One of my favorite martial arts books and one of the few good books that I've found on boxing technique. I am particularly fond of how he taught corkscrew hooks and uppercuts. It's a hard book to find as I recall. - -- Danny ------------------------------ From: "Wallace, John" Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:24:48 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Dempsey's theory This isn't the first time I've heard the recommendation to punch with the last 3 knuckles (in fact, I think the other time I heard it was also from a boxer) but it makes as little sense to me now as it did then. Certainly Dempsey is a credible authority on throwing a punch...but I have to think that the fact that boxers do their hitting with big (relatively) soft gloves makes up for the poorer biomechanics of the punching technique. I can think of two different sports (TKD and baseball) that extoll the virtues of the power of the first two knuckles. No one would think of throwing a fastball using the ring and pinky fingers! The reason for this is that the index and pointer fingers are heavily stabilized with ligaments. The other two are more flexibly established and serve as a "cupping" force by adapting the hand to the thing you're gripping. Even the angles that the carpal bones make with the wrist favor the use of the first two knuckles, which are in line with the radius. The other two bones come in at an angle. On the side of favoring the "three knuckle punch" I can only think that there is a reduction of pressure on the striking hand by distributing the force of the blow over a larger surface, which presumably would result in less trauma to the knuckle surface. I would think that this is a bad thing though, as the pressure exerted against the thing you're hitting is similarly reduced. Another argument in favor of emphasizing the "outer" part of the hand might be the observation that the heavier of the two forearm bones, the ulna, is on that side of the hand. The fact that the wrist bones aren't as solidly associated with that bone as they are with the radius would argue against it however. In summary, I'm still puzzled why someone would argue that punching with the last three knuckles is a good thing. Ray, did Dempsey go into it in his book? - ----snip--- Ray Terry wrote: .... He also makes the claim that the proper punch is performed with the last three kunckles of the fist verses the first two as typically used in the Karate-like styles. .... ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:32:46 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re:Gen Choi The civilian Kwan to which you refer is the Chung Do Kwan, from which he received an honorary 4th dan from the CDK president of that time, Song Duk Sung. Incidentally, on 15 June 1959, that ranking was revoked for "mishandling affairs and because of false statements he made concerning his experience and position (Choi claimed years experience and proclaimed himself highest ranking martial artist in Korea)". Also interesting to ote in this vein, Chung Han Kwan (Choi's ITF TKD) was not formed until 22 March 65. So this brings to my mind the question, since Choi received his 2nd dan while attendind Yonsei University circa 1937, why would he have needed Chung Do Kwan rank? If Taekwondo's history should start with him, then should it start when he "proposed" the name, when he was studying Shotokan, or when Chung Han Kwan was founded? If any of these are to be the case, then what about the histories of Chung Do, Chang Moo, Song Moo, Ji Do and Moo Duk, which incidentally are the original 5 kwans? Something to think about. IMHO, Choi only assisted in standardizing what was being taught, but until he founded Chung Han, he was not the founder of anything. Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: In Sun Seo seminar >Lastly I remember reading a post regarding Hapkido Governing bodies. >I'd like to mention that in Korea, the two most prominent ones are the Korea >Hapkido Association(Dae Han Hapkido Association) and the Korea Kido Assocation >(Dae Han Kido Hae). Both received national recognition from the Ministry of >Culture. However, the Korea Kido association recieved it in 1963, while the >Korea Hapkido Association received it in 1991(A vast majority of the top >ranking masters of the Korea Hapkido Association had in fact originally >received dan certification from the the Kido Association). Although the >Korea Hapkido Association, led by Oh Se Lim, is a legitimate organization, ... Isn't it the Korea Hapkido Federation that is under Oh Se Lim? The Korea Hapkido Association is a different organization. Along with the KHF, KHA, and the KKA, the other large org is the International Hapki Federation under Kim Moo Woong, but the KHF being the largest of them all. Ray ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 18:28:19 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Dempsey's theory > This isn't the first time I've heard the recommendation to punch with the > last 3 knuckles (in fact, I think the other time I heard it was also from a > boxer) but it makes as little sense to me now as it did then. Certainly > Dempsey is a credible authority on throwing a punch...but I have to think > that the fact that boxers do their hitting with big (relatively) soft gloves > makes up for the poorer biomechanics of the punching technique. Don't the Wing Chun folks use the last three knuckles? They claim this approach is superior. > In summary, I'm still puzzled why someone would argue that punching with the > last three knuckles is a good thing. Ray, did Dempsey go into it in his > book? Yes. He shows that the line of force of a 'perfect punch', in this case a left jolt, runs straight up the arm from the shoulder through the little finger into the target. To demo this he has you make a fist, orient your fist with the palm facing to the inside/thumb up, stand away from a wall and then place your fist (as if hitting the wall) on the wall about head high. His claim is that the best orientation for delivery of power to the target is with the wrist straight and the last three knuckles flush with the wall. Thus the force of the punch runs along a straight line from the shoulder through the little finger into the wall. But since the pinky is so weak the brunt of the force is to be taken by the large/middle knuckle and the ring finger knuckle. Dempsey was a street fighter before turning to prize fighting, so I suspect he had plenty of ungloved experience. But I like the standard 'karate' punch delivery using the index and middle finger knuckles. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #390 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.