From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #415 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 19 June 2000 Vol 07 : Num 415 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Conversation with GM Lee Won-kuk the_dojang: Conversation with GM Lee Won-kuk the_dojang: Aiki-JJ seminar the_dojang: re: the bs lists the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 975 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:11:47 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Conversation with GM Lee Won-kuk [NOTE: The following is offered as a better way for the original researcher in question (not Master Mac) to have handled the situation of the next post in this issue of the_dojang. It is offered here with the following well-formed admonition from one very wise individual (no, not me :). So please read on, but with the following firmly in mind. Ray Terry] It would have been better for him to post those facts he mentions -- documents, photos, letters, instead of reporting his conversation with GM Lee, whose views are definitely subjective. I agree with you, even if some of those things GM Lee said about other martial artists were true, the accusations he leveled against them smacked of a personal vendetta and certainly showed no respect for the individuals who are considered to be at the top level of martial arts. My personal motto in life has always been, if you have nothing good to say about another person, don't say anything. Just present the facts and let the martial arts community form their own opinion. A general posting would only create gossip and inflammatory responses and create an unhealthy atmosphere among the martial artists. History, as we know, is presented from a more or less subjective point of view of the writer. Facts are twisted to fit that particular point of view, so we get a subjective view of subjective sources, which the writer claims are objective, the "only truth". The real truth is sometimes somewhere in-between. ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 12:31:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Conversation with GM Lee Won-kuk A friend shared this with me, that I thought was very interesting. It was written by our good friend, Glenn Uesugi (hope I got your name spelled correctly), who although boycotts this list, is one of our devoted members who reads every issue (and takes down names). Thanks Glenn. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Spoke to GM LEE Won Kuk today I was having lunch with my Korean translator working over some translations, and we decided to call Chung Do Kwan founder GM LEE Won Kuk on the telephone. I had previously attempted to call GM Lee, but we couldn't communicate because of the language barrier. This time we spoke for a while and he said some pretty interesting things about some of the pioneers and his experiences with them. GM LEE Won Kuk first said that he learned from both Sensei FUNAKOSHI Gichin and his son, Sensei FUNAKOSHI Giko in Tokyo while a student at Chuo University. He said that he received "the highest dan" rank from the Shotokan at the time, but was not specific about his actual rank. He said that he first met General CHOI Hong Hi in Tokyo at Chuo University and that General Choi did briefly study Shotokan Karate. GM Lee said that when General Choi started, he had no prior martial arts experience and that General Choi did not receive any rank, guep or dan while in Japan. He said that GM NAM Tae Hi, who lives in Chicago, knows everything about it and has all the evidence. Regarding GM HWANG Kee, GM Lee stated that he first met GM Hwang in 1944. GM Lee was a railroad employee and GM Hwang was "under him" and that is how they became acquaited. GM Lee stated that GM Hwang studied with him for three years, from 1944-1947, when he opened up his own dojang. GM Hwang then began making all sorts of false claims about his martial arts background, which upset many of the Chung Do Kwan members, including GM SON Duk Sung, who in 1947, chased down GM Hwang in the street and beat him up for what he was saying. GM Lee said that when GM Hwang first started studying, he had no prior experience. GM Lee also said that GM Hwang received no geup or no dan rank while a Chung Do Kwan member. Also, the name of GM Hwang's school, the Moo Duk Kwan, was not used until after he left Korea for Japan in 1950. GM Lee called GM Hwang a "betrayer" because after he left for Japan, GM Hwang used that opportunity to spread lies in an effort to boost his position in Korean Martial Arts. Incidentally, the animosity of GM SON Duk Sung towards GM HWANG Kee sheds new light on the reasons why GM Hwang did not participate as heavily in the unification efforts during the 1950's, but interestingly, after GM Son was no longer Chung Do Kwan Kwan Jang, GM Hwang began participating. Also GM Lee said that he neer used the term "Chung Do Kwan" in Korea, but called his group "Chung Do Hwe". The name Chung Do Kwan came out after he left Korea in 1950. As for Song Moo Kwan's GM RO Byung Jick, GM Lee said that he first met GM Ro in Tokyo around 1940 and that he used to visit him every once in a while. He said that GM Ro was also a Shotokan student under Funakoshi Sensei. During World War II, GM Ro was a policeman in Mapo Gu, but he lost his position after Independence Day on August 15, 1945. At that point, GM Lee said that he gave GM Ro the title "Kyo Kwan" so that he could teach martial arts and earn a living. I also asked him about GM CHUN Sang Sup and GM YOON Byung In, but he had nothing to say about those two. GM Lee was very open to discussing history and he constantly stated that he had all the evidence, including photos, documents, and letters which backs up what he says. He also invited me to come to his house several times and said that I could look through everything and make copies if I wanted, because he wants to let the world know what truly happened. He feels disappointed that so many people spread so many lies and made so many distortions about what really happened. GM Lee has an incredible memory for detail, and if you ask him a simple question, he will offer many facts and details covering a broad scope of the general simple topic. I think that what GM Lee says could easily fill a book, especially if it is filled with all of the photographs, documents and letters than he has kept over the years. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 15:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Aiki-JJ seminar Forwarding. FYI... Ray - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Seminar featuring Shihan Jose del Cristo Garrido Saturday, July 15, 2000 12:00-4:30 Cost: $45.00 in advance $55.00 at the door PLEASE REGISTER IN ADVANCE, AS SPACE IS LIMITED (contact info below) A brief history of Shihan Garrido's martial arts training: 1964 - began his Aiki Martial Arts Training 1973 - received his Koyju Dairi in Morita-Ha Aikido 1982 - received his Dan in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai He is recognized as a Kaiden Shihan by the IFOJJ, the EJJU and the SBB-UK, and he is a kaicho shihan of the Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Goshinkai. Contact us at: Ju-Jitsu Dojo of Columbia 9515 Gerwig Lane, Suite 103 Columbia, MD 21046 (410) 309-1988 You can register by phone or via our website at http://www.combatju-jitsu.com ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:19:53 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: the bs lists Thats ok Ray. I was a member of that llist until two issues occured. The first one being that I personally felt that the list manager was being intrusive into my background. This is due to the fact that I have trained with Richard Hackworth, whom I perceive them to be jealous of. These people have even gone so far as to contact my office, saying they were a part of the Taekwondo Special Investigations Committee, and that they were investigating Dr. Hackworth. Then one of them illegally used a name resembling him, trying to convince me he was going to jail. To which, I responded that I was going to call him. They weren't there when I cam back online. Then they picked an AOL screen name almost identical to mine and used my name in the profile. Currently, this matter is under federal investigation, so I can say no more about it. The second thing that occured was me making a post on this list. So Ray, if you ask me, the members on this list aren't missing much. I have yet to see the allegations and the rhetoric here that I have seen elsewhere. I wirte this because, I think that you do a very good job, making a forum in which we can speak to each other respectfully, and to share knowledge with one another. Thanks for your efforts. To the other list members, I would not even bother with the other list. Some of the information they provided to me was refuted by the USTU. To me, this is not the kind of people that I would like to be involved with. Tang Soo!! (sorry for the length) Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 21:15:17 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #415 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.