From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #422 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 22 June 2000 Vol 07 : Num 422 In this issue: the_dojang: Suggestions Against Wolf Packs (Long Post) the_dojang: Re: Marc "Animal" MacYoung the_dojang: (no subject) the_dojang: Conference on Martial Arts Re: the_dojang: How to handle a mob scene like the Central Park debacle the_dojang: 1965 - Choi-book the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 985 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TaoArt@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:13:09 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Suggestions Against Wolf Packs (Long Post) Mr. Rogers writes: << As the parent of a lovely 12 y.o. female (who's been in TKD for 5 years, btw), I'm pretty disturbed by the horrendous behavior of the males in Central Park, as is being widely reported.>> I have a five year old and two year old daughter myself. << I've discussed this with my daughter, and basically told her "if your shirt is ripped off or whatever, don't worry about that, but you must keep your wits about you." Moreover, if anyone goes for fondling or whatever, I'm inclined to tell her to firmly utilize the appropriate techniques (grab and bend a finger or two, finger the jugular notch, finger in the eye, foot to the groin, etc.). Upon reflection, I'm wondering if this would actually escalate the situation to be even more violent.>> There are few points to keep in mind when dealing with Wolf Packs: 1) You are way outnumbered 2) The "gang mentality" is a powerful force that promotes uninhibited acts 3) There is always someone in the Pack who isn't really "into" what is going on... they are just "along for the ride". 4) Your goal is NOT to fight them... but to escape. Of course, the first and most important defense is to keep an eye out. Wolf Packs create HUGE wakes (disruptions) in the flow of a crowd. Often, you can see/hear them coming from way off. Those women who were attacked had probably never witnessed a Wolf Pack before. Those who do usually recognize the signs quickly and work to move out of their path. However, failing that, here are a few suggestions: 1) The very first guy to lay a hand on you gets hit - and hit hard. Elbows and knees are the best weapons in an unarmed self defense situation. 2) Considering the Disparity of Force, if I felt my life was in danger, I would draw my knife and start cutting my way out. (Yeah, even in NYC) 3) If I was surrounded, I would *create* a pathway by charging *through* the smallest person in sight. If I had time to assess, I would choose the guy who didnt really want to be there and go through him. He would provide the least amount of resistance. 4) *Immediately* find a police officer and *demand* a police report. The women attacked were pretty much given a cold shoulder by the police. If I was treated in such a manner, I would have gotten the officers badge number and gone straight to the precinct. 5) Post attack: Ask to be taken to the hospital - *even* if you don't think you were seriously injured. Often you have been and, in your adrenalized state, you haven't felt it yet. 6) Document all injuries with photos at the hospital. 7) If you inflicted damage upon your attackers beyond a simple shove, call a criminal lawyer (*not* a family attorney). Talk to the lawyer about what you should/shouldn't say. If you *have* to talk to the police, keep it limited to what the attackers did to you - not what you did to them. 8) Try to give a detailed description of your attackers: Identifying marks, etc. I wouldn't be too concerned about "escalating" the situation with physical defense. In my mind, most escalation of situations is done *before* the physical confrontation. This is done by "ego hooking" - calling the men names and/or insulting them. Once they lay hands on you, your goal is to escape. If you believe your life is in danger, then do *whatever* it takes to stop them and escape. In hindsight, it is easy for us to say that the women's lives were not in danger... but were they in danger of rape? Hmm... a large group of men ripping off their clothes in public and groping them. Seems like sound summation to me. Any lawyers on the list? I think women can defend themselves with lethal force in every state, against rape, death or grave bodily injury. (FYI, I don't believe men are covered by the law in using lethal force against sodomy). << I'm keenly interested in folks ideas and backgrounds/experiences to support those ideas, especially from the GuardUp folks, for example. >> Hope this helped. Let me know if you have anymore questions. Meghan Gardner Guard Up, Inc. www.GuardUp.com "Carry love in your heart and a knife in your pocket at all times." me ------------------------------ From: Megadunce@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:24:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Marc "Animal" MacYoung > >I have read all ten of Marc's books, watched all of his videos, worked with >him, trained with him, ....... > >What else you want to know? > >Alain Burrese Thanks Alain you provided the information I was looking for. I have been reading your posts for quite a while and you have credibility with me. In other words your opinion counts with me. Thanks ------------------------------ From: Seo727@aol.com Date: Thu Jun 22 11:55:15 2000 Subject: the_dojang: (no subject) Will, In Sun Seo is the chairman of the Korea Kido Hae and World Kido Federation as well as the head of the Korea Kuk Sool Association. The reason you didn't find him listed on the web site is because the World Kuk Sool Association and the Korea Kuk Sool Association are two separate entities. In any case, In Sun Seo's school in the US is located in Fremont, CA and is run by his two sons( yours truly and my older brother as well as my sister) In addition, he will be having a seminar in Fremont in September. Steve Seo ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 9:22:44 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Conference on Martial Arts Fowarding. Ray - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: From: "Joseph F. Connolly, II" Third International Conference on Martial Arts Organised by the Society of Martial Arts and supported by the College of Higher Education of Martial Arts and The School of Community, Health Science and Social Care University of Salford Venue :- Plant Hill High School, Higher Blackley, Manchester, UK Date:- 25.11.00 Time:- 9.30 a.m. - 4.30 a.m. Guest of Honour:- Dr. Joseph Connolly, GrandMaster American Yudo Organisation Keynote Speakers:- Geoff Thompson MMA, FSMA - Psychology of Martial Arts Peter Consterdine MMA, FSMA - Bio-mechanics of Martial Arts Peter Lewis MMA, FSMA - History and Philosophy of Martial Arts Dr. Jamie Le Barron FSMA - Education in Martial Arts Dr. Danny Meetoo FSMA - Continuous Professional Development in Martial Arts Joint Chair:- Dr. Eugene de Silva FSMA/ Robert Sykes FSMA Tickets:- 50.00 per person ( including buffet and book of abstracts) ( SMA members 25.00 per person) Only limited places. Send your cheques to SMA before 31.08.00 Please send your abstract and demonstration details of not more than 200 words to :- The SMA, P.O. Box 34, Manchester. M9 8 DN before 15.08.00 ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:51:18 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: How to handle a mob scene like the Central Park debacle On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Paul Rogers wrote: > > Aside from the obvious "don't get anywhere near a mob like that," what are > some opinions on how a lady should best handle that type of situation, in > terms of self-defense. > > I've discussed this with my daughter, and basically told her "if your shirt > is ripped off or whatever, don't worry about that, but you must keep your > wits about you." Moreover, if anyone goes for fondling or whatever, I'm > inclined to tell her to firmly utilize the appropriate techniques (grab and > bend a finger or two, finger the jugular notch, finger in the eye, foot to > the groin, etc.). > > Upon reflection, I'm wondering if this would actually escalate the situation > to be even more violent. > I used to work extensively on self defense for the local rape crisis shelter. And during the course of that collaboration I studied rape extensively. Which is somewhat different than the mob situation here, but I think there are some principles that can be pulled over. Overall several studies that I read gave the best defense for rape as: fighting, yelling, and running away. Other strategies like: crying, pleading and etc. were in some cases not effective or actually counterproductive. There were also instances were the woman was able to out-wit the assailent and get him to do un-expected things. Like "the knife scares me it makes me too nervous, put it down". When the assailent complies she took the knife and turned it on him. There are generally three categories of rape: power, anger, and sadistic. The most common category is power. The perpetrator wants to dominate and exersize power over the victim. In these cases quite often if the "price" is too high the assailent will stop. In other words inflict enough pain and the assailent will leave. In many cases the amount of pain required is quite small. In one case a woman merly bent the guys fingers back and he backed off. Also quite often assailents look for women they feel will be an easy target. Now the less comon anger and sadistic rapists, it becomes more important to physically disable the assailent, so more aggressive tactics are required. One case that has some relevence to a mob situation was with a leader of the Guardian Angels who was attacked by three men in a parking garage. She was choked from behind and went unconscious. When she woke up there was an assailent on top ready to rape her saying "show us your karate now!". She complied -- grabbed his penis and pulled as hard as she could. After that "the price was too high" and all three assailents left. So back to the mob scene. What I've seen of the mob scene it was a gradual escalation of violence without repercussions. In other words none of the men were getting hurt. If one of the men got his testicles crushed by a woman, I think it likely the rest would back off. Also if some of the men would've got their noses bloodied or something else, others might have backed off. The mob mentality could've then turned a corner of "let's get the girl that beat my friend up". However, it would likely take a bit to do that, and in that time the girl would have a chance to get away. It's also important for the women to verbally assert "NO!" "don't touch me!", "back off!" etc. This can garner support from others. One thing about the mob situation is that wasn't carefully planned in advance. It took time for the scene to escalate, and it took time for the mob to make the next move. When a woman is attacked by a man that has a carefully laid out plan, it's important to break the plan as soon as possible. But, doing so is somewhat more difficult than in the mob situation where it wasn't planned in advance. The "don't get anywhere near a mob like that," needs mentioning. If you see a group of people that makes you uncomfortable, get away while you can. And in general you want to keep some space between you and other folks in such a situation. Or at least be careful and aware of those around when you do. Crossing the street to avoid a mob is always a good idea, or even turning around to do so. Once in the middle of a mob it's pretty difficult to move and respond effectively. Erik Kluzek, (CGD at NCAR) National Center for Atmospheric Research Boulder CO, (off) (303)497-1326 (fax) (303)497-1324 - --------- Home page and public PGP key--------------- http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/~erik !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:50:28 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: 1965 - Choi-book Dear everybody, I just got hold of the 1965 TKD book by maj.gen. Choi, Hong Hi. I had to pay 150$ for it. Was that an ok price? What's the going rate for this book and how difficult is it normally to obtain? Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:20:31 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #422 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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