From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #491
Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Precedence:
The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 22 July 2000 Vol 07 : Num 491
In this issue:
the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #490
the_dojang: 2000 Western Open
Re: the_dojang: Hello and a question
the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #490
the_dojang: Ving Tsun and Wing Chun
the_dojang: .
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Pil Seung!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Meixner1@aol.com
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:14:19 EDT
Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #490
Sarah,
You can learn your forms in advance here and brush up on old ones. WTF TAEKWONDO
POOMSE
> Today, July 20, I practiced _my_ new form which I learned on
> Monday - Tae Guk Sah Jong. It's nothing like the first three Tae Guk
> forms, and much more interesting, as it has several dual knife-hand
> blocks. I also went to work for four hours. For breakfast, I ate a
> yogurt.
> Tomorrow: More of the Continuing Saga of My Life
------------------------------
From: Ray Terry
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:13:23 PDT
Subject: the_dojang: 2000 Western Open
Received in the mail...
2000 Western Open
Tae Kwon Do Champships
Senior / Junior / Men / Women
September 16, 2000
Saturday 9AM to 7PM
California State University
San Bernardino, California
For more information contact:
Grandmaster Si Young Jo
9432 Garden Grove Blvd
Garden Grove, CA
92844
714-534-4600
------------------------------
From: Erik Kluzek
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:45:51 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: the_dojang: Hello and a question
Craig brought up a worthwhile question about the many different
martial arts groups...
On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 Creed71963@aol.com wrote:
> My question has to do with all the different Martial arts origiazations that
> seem to be everywhere these day, especially with the more well known arts. My
> question is why?
>
> The most common reason that I know of is that people grow dissatisfied with
> the direction their current origiazations is heading, but is that much
> dissatisfaction out there to have a dozen TKD or HKD
> federations/associations/groups?
I think the reasons for different groups are as follows. Actually
the reasons that a Master will break away from a organization and
form their own.
1.) Prestige.
2.) Disagreement on direction/focus/methodology.
3.) Money.
4.) Power.
5.) Death of an originating charasmatic leader
6.) Lack of self-determination.
I think the above are probably somewhat worse in a organization
with one "Big Kahuna" leader. The followers that have remained
loyal to that leader for decades may decide they they should get
a bigger piece of the pie (in terms of prestige, power, money and
direction) than they currently have. So they split off and form
their own organization. One advantage the WTF has is that there is
not one founding leader, there's lots of 9th Dan's of equal rank.
The WTF also allows very divergent methods to remain under one
umbrella. In many martial arts after the death of the founding leader
the organization splits up and falls apart. Money can not be discounted
if a Master sees association dues and test fees for his students
merely go onto the leaders of the organization, it's no wonder they
might be dissatisfied. At the same time if they see the organization
going in one direction and their own study in a different direction
it makes sense to seperate. Also if a Master that has put in decades
of study doesn't have the ability to provide input into the
organization, it may be a reason for them to split.
> Are too many competing groups turning the
> martial arts into a morass of McDojos, with more focus on money and power
> then teaching? What about the friction between groups that is more then
> simple disagreements?
I don't don't think divergent organizations necissarily turn schools
into McDojangs. In some ways divergent organizations merely provide
a greater variety for students to learn from. And it also provides
opportunity for some of the best methods to be highlighted.
But, there are issues of methodology that groups can not be reconciled
over. For example, ITF sparring versus WTF olympic style. Or the
various forms that different Tae Kwon Do groups use. Then there are
the problems that people create due to insults thrown out, or claims
of "being better than style Y". These kinds of things make it
difficult to mend fences. But, when there are these fundamental
disagreements on how training methods should be done -- the
possibility of mending fences becomes close to nill.
>
> Please note I am not accusing any group of anything unethical. I have always
> tried to avoid politics if possible, and I feel that there's a mindset out
> there that will ruin martial arts if it isn't addressed.
>
Politics is just the dynamics of people working together. If you
work with people you have to deal with it. People need to feel
important. And when they have earned respect they need to have it
shown to them. And many times that creates this posturing and
shifting positions in order for individuals to get the respect
they feel they deserve.
But, look at it this way -- new organizations are like new plants.
If they are not viable they will eventually die off. If they are
successful, they may eventually take over for the established
organizations.
Erik Kluzek, (CGD at NCAR)
National Center for Atmospheric Research
Boulder CO, (off) (303)497-1326 (fax) (303)497-1324
- --------- Home page and public PGP key---------------
http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/~erik
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------------------------
From: Emactkd@aol.com
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 01:50:57 EDT
Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #490
Good one Sarah. In fact I have found my toenails to be of exceeding length
today, and have ground them down using a 250 grit sandpaper and a Black and
Decker model 3500 belt sander.
Rick Foley
------------------------------
From: "S. H. Wee"
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 14:12:53 +0800
Subject: the_dojang: Ving Tsun and Wing Chun
Dear Steve,
The source of Wing Chun is similar to Hun Gar, both created by Ji Shin Chan
Shi of Southern Fujian (Hokkian) Shaolin Temple. Ji Shin Chan Shi (Might
spelled differently in different dialect) is one of the early Five
Ancestors. Others are Ng Mui & Pak Mei (White Eye-brow). It was taught to
Yim Wing Chun via her teacher, the nun Ng Mui. The art was given to her with
permission to form her own school of Wing Chun Meng (The Gateway of Wing
Chun).
However, due to the differences in physical attributes and level of
understanding among her early students. Each of them has evolved separately
with their own distinctive characteristic. The most popular Wing Chun
Sub-style today is from Leong Jan of Fushan, Canton. Whose third generation
student is the infamous Yip Man. A few of the other main lineages I know of
(those with direct link to Yim Wing Chun and gone through official "baixi"
ceremonies as carriers of the art); one still in Mainland China, one ended
up in Vietnam in the early 20s and another one ended up in Malaysia.
Kung Fu in the early days is meant for combat, each practitioner will
improved on what they learned to be suitable to thier physical capability
and environment. Thus, even the students from the same teacher will execute
the art differently. What remain the same will be the concepts and the
principles.
Talking about Shaolin, I can't resist to put in my two cents worth. My own
late grandfather claimed that he learned his Kung Fu from a monk at Fujian
Shaolin. However, I believe those monks will most probably be the rebels
that used Shaolin Temple as their refuge while plotting to overthrow the
Manchurian invaders, as genuine Buddhist Monks are refrained from violent.
The so-called Shaolin Kung Fu as demonstrated by official Chinese "Shaolin
Monks" nowaday is simply publicity stunt. The Cultural Revolution
practically destroyed everything Shaolin. From what little I have glanced,
the original Shaolin arts are closer to Kuntaos and Hosinsul with lots of
trappings, throwings and joint-breakings than the Wushu today.
Sincerely,
S. H. Wee
In a message dated 00-07-21 10:01:17 EDT, you write:
<<
Ving Tsun and Wing Chun are exactly the same thing, except in different
dialects. Personally, I would prefer the use of Mandarin spelling. After
all, it was the imperial language that was created to solve the
communication problems between different races and dialects in China.
The same thing happenned to Kuntao, Kuntaw, Kuntau, Kenpo, Kempo and
Kwon Bup which means the same thing with some variations due the
evolution in different regions.
Sincerely,
S. H. Wee
>>
Wing Chun is a Cantonese art. But, there's more difference than just
dialectic spelling; it also denotes different Wing Chun styles & lineages.
For example: "Wing Tsun Kuen" is the Yip Man / Leung Ting lineage. To my
knowledge, this is the only style that never "double weights" (never places
equal weight on both feet), which sets it apart from the rest. Also, their
chi sao (sticky hands) pattern is a little different. This is a soft style,
while some WC is a little harder. They use a deceptive-range backstance --
while William Cheung's ("Wing Chun") style uses a sidestance.
Although it's all the same basic art, there are many WC styles, and many
stylistic differences from 1 to another.
Steve W.
------------------------------
From: Ray Terry
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 8:05:33 PDT
Subject: the_dojang: .
------------------------------
End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #491
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