From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #491 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 22 July 2000 Vol 07 : Num 491 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #490 the_dojang: 2000 Western Open Re: the_dojang: Hello and a question the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #490 the_dojang: Ving Tsun and Wing Chun the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 925 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Meixner1@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:14:19 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #490 Sarah, You can learn your forms in advance here and brush up on old ones. WTF TAEKWONDO POOMSE > Today, July 20, I practiced _my_ new form which I learned on > Monday - Tae Guk Sah Jong. It's nothing like the first three Tae Guk > forms, and much more interesting, as it has several dual knife-hand > blocks. I also went to work for four hours. For breakfast, I ate a > yogurt. > Tomorrow: More of the Continuing Saga of My Life ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:13:23 PDT Subject: the_dojang: 2000 Western Open Received in the mail... 2000 Western Open Tae Kwon Do Champships Senior / Junior / Men / Women September 16, 2000 Saturday 9AM to 7PM California State University San Bernardino, California For more information contact: Grandmaster Si Young Jo 9432 Garden Grove Blvd Garden Grove, CA 92844 714-534-4600 ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:45:51 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Hello and a question Craig brought up a worthwhile question about the many different martial arts groups... On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 Creed71963@aol.com wrote: > My question has to do with all the different Martial arts origiazations that > seem to be everywhere these day, especially with the more well known arts. My > question is why? > > The most common reason that I know of is that people grow dissatisfied with > the direction their current origiazations is heading, but is that much > dissatisfaction out there to have a dozen TKD or HKD > federations/associations/groups? I think the reasons for different groups are as follows. Actually the reasons that a Master will break away from a organization and form their own. 1.) Prestige. 2.) Disagreement on direction/focus/methodology. 3.) Money. 4.) Power. 5.) Death of an originating charasmatic leader 6.) Lack of self-determination. I think the above are probably somewhat worse in a organization with one "Big Kahuna" leader. The followers that have remained loyal to that leader for decades may decide they they should get a bigger piece of the pie (in terms of prestige, power, money and direction) than they currently have. So they split off and form their own organization. One advantage the WTF has is that there is not one founding leader, there's lots of 9th Dan's of equal rank. The WTF also allows very divergent methods to remain under one umbrella. In many martial arts after the death of the founding leader the organization splits up and falls apart. Money can not be discounted if a Master sees association dues and test fees for his students merely go onto the leaders of the organization, it's no wonder they might be dissatisfied. At the same time if they see the organization going in one direction and their own study in a different direction it makes sense to seperate. Also if a Master that has put in decades of study doesn't have the ability to provide input into the organization, it may be a reason for them to split. > Are too many competing groups turning the > martial arts into a morass of McDojos, with more focus on money and power > then teaching? What about the friction between groups that is more then > simple disagreements? I don't don't think divergent organizations necissarily turn schools into McDojangs. In some ways divergent organizations merely provide a greater variety for students to learn from. And it also provides opportunity for some of the best methods to be highlighted. But, there are issues of methodology that groups can not be reconciled over. For example, ITF sparring versus WTF olympic style. Or the various forms that different Tae Kwon Do groups use. Then there are the problems that people create due to insults thrown out, or claims of "being better than style Y". These kinds of things make it difficult to mend fences. But, when there are these fundamental disagreements on how training methods should be done -- the possibility of mending fences becomes close to nill. > > Please note I am not accusing any group of anything unethical. I have always > tried to avoid politics if possible, and I feel that there's a mindset out > there that will ruin martial arts if it isn't addressed. > Politics is just the dynamics of people working together. If you work with people you have to deal with it. People need to feel important. And when they have earned respect they need to have it shown to them. And many times that creates this posturing and shifting positions in order for individuals to get the respect they feel they deserve. But, look at it this way -- new organizations are like new plants. If they are not viable they will eventually die off. If they are successful, they may eventually take over for the established organizations. Erik Kluzek, (CGD at NCAR) National Center for Atmospheric Research Boulder CO, (off) (303)497-1326 (fax) (303)497-1324 - --------- Home page and public PGP key--------------- http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/~erik !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 01:50:57 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #490 Good one Sarah. In fact I have found my toenails to be of exceeding length today, and have ground them down using a 250 grit sandpaper and a Black and Decker model 3500 belt sander. Rick Foley ------------------------------ From: "S. H. Wee" Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 14:12:53 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Ving Tsun and Wing Chun Dear Steve, The source of Wing Chun is similar to Hun Gar, both created by Ji Shin Chan Shi of Southern Fujian (Hokkian) Shaolin Temple. Ji Shin Chan Shi (Might spelled differently in different dialect) is one of the early Five Ancestors. Others are Ng Mui & Pak Mei (White Eye-brow). It was taught to Yim Wing Chun via her teacher, the nun Ng Mui. The art was given to her with permission to form her own school of Wing Chun Meng (The Gateway of Wing Chun). However, due to the differences in physical attributes and level of understanding among her early students. Each of them has evolved separately with their own distinctive characteristic. The most popular Wing Chun Sub-style today is from Leong Jan of Fushan, Canton. Whose third generation student is the infamous Yip Man. A few of the other main lineages I know of (those with direct link to Yim Wing Chun and gone through official "baixi" ceremonies as carriers of the art); one still in Mainland China, one ended up in Vietnam in the early 20s and another one ended up in Malaysia. Kung Fu in the early days is meant for combat, each practitioner will improved on what they learned to be suitable to thier physical capability and environment. Thus, even the students from the same teacher will execute the art differently. What remain the same will be the concepts and the principles. Talking about Shaolin, I can't resist to put in my two cents worth. My own late grandfather claimed that he learned his Kung Fu from a monk at Fujian Shaolin. However, I believe those monks will most probably be the rebels that used Shaolin Temple as their refuge while plotting to overthrow the Manchurian invaders, as genuine Buddhist Monks are refrained from violent. The so-called Shaolin Kung Fu as demonstrated by official Chinese "Shaolin Monks" nowaday is simply publicity stunt. The Cultural Revolution practically destroyed everything Shaolin. From what little I have glanced, the original Shaolin arts are closer to Kuntaos and Hosinsul with lots of trappings, throwings and joint-breakings than the Wushu today. Sincerely, S. H. Wee In a message dated 00-07-21 10:01:17 EDT, you write: << Ving Tsun and Wing Chun are exactly the same thing, except in different dialects. Personally, I would prefer the use of Mandarin spelling. After all, it was the imperial language that was created to solve the communication problems between different races and dialects in China. The same thing happenned to Kuntao, Kuntaw, Kuntau, Kenpo, Kempo and Kwon Bup which means the same thing with some variations due the evolution in different regions. Sincerely, S. H. Wee >> Wing Chun is a Cantonese art. But, there's more difference than just dialectic spelling; it also denotes different Wing Chun styles & lineages. For example: "Wing Tsun Kuen" is the Yip Man / Leung Ting lineage. To my knowledge, this is the only style that never "double weights" (never places equal weight on both feet), which sets it apart from the rest. Also, their chi sao (sticky hands) pattern is a little different. This is a soft style, while some WC is a little harder. They use a deceptive-range backstance -- while William Cheung's ("Wing Chun") style uses a sidestance. Although it's all the same basic art, there are many WC styles, and many stylistic differences from 1 to another. Steve W. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 8:05:33 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #491 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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