From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #498 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 26 July 2000 Vol 07 : Num 498 In this issue: Re: the_dojang: USTU Affiliation the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #496 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #496 the_dojang: Off to a training camp... Re: the_dojang: Re: Learning forms early Re: the_dojang: Hoshinsool, One-steps, Two-steps,Three-steps? the_dojang: IJF ? ? ? the_dojang: Re: Goodbye for now the_dojang: Re: The (Shamelessly) Unofficial Taekwondo Hyung Resource Page the_dojang: RE: learning forms in advance the_dojang: RE: Learning forms early the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 920 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:52:49 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: USTU Affiliation > Thanks for the clarification, Ray. If I may ask the question properly now, > what is the requirements of a club to becaome affiliated with the USTU? What > about the ATA and GTF? It has been awhile since I joined my club with the USTU, but as I recall I just had to fill out an application form giving them info such as location, my Dan rank and #, the names of the officers, etc, and send in the fee to join. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: LJSFLEM@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:06:04 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #496 In a message dated 7/25/00 5:45:15 PM !!!First Boot!!!, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I've noticed a lot of people out there writing about learning a form early. >> Our instructor's rule is that it is disrespectful to go ahead of what he is teaching you. Lorraine NJ ------------------------------ From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:29:24 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #496 I would be interested to meet the creator of the Tae Geuk forms. I think it was most probably a committee result, not the work of a single individual, which makes it hard to really grasp what was meant at the time. I was taught that form is imaginary sparring. But the way forms are now performed it is hard to see the combat in them. The slow motion aspect of form as it is performed in most tournaments is very far from any fight I ever imagined. 20 years ago the forms performed in the tournaments in this area were much more like fights in their rhythms, but the style has evolved to one made to be slow motion. Some argue that forms now display much cleaner technique, but I think we lost something important for what we gained. Rick Foley ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 06:41:05 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Off to a training camp... Hello everybody, I`m going to a training camp tonight. 83 people from two countries and two weeks full of TKD, HKD, Eskrima and whatever else we choose to do. Plus some guest instructors, parties, sight-seeing... I love it! Even when I`m responsible for putting it all together and taking care of all the paperwork... CU in two weeks :) - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:40:49 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Learning forms early On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Sarah Pride wrote: > could be absolutely confident that I did. So the advantages of > learning the forms early are considerable. > I think the only problem with learning forms too early is if a student spends too much time on the new forms (that they don't need to know) at the expense of the forms for their level (that they are required to know). Often students will want to move on to a new more complex form before having mastered their current ones. They would be better off forming a solid foundation with their current forms before moving on. However, I would commend Sarah for taking the initiative to learn her forms as quickly as possible by using published sources. On the other hand after black belt level, I think most students technically could learn higher ranking forms before they reach that rank. The time between testing is greater, and you probably could learn most of the forms in your system. But, there's also value in holding back so that you always have something new to learn as you advance in rank. This provides one incentive for rank advancement. This later case corresponds more closely to the question Kim Jones brought up, about her instructor teaching forms early. With the reasoning that most of the students were military and would shortly move. I can certainly see the reasoning there. I have been in the situation of only having a few sessions to learn a form from my instructor, before I have to figure it out on my own. I would much rather have someone to teach it to me rather than having to struggle on my own. If in some cases this means to learn a few forms "early" it really might make a lot of sense... Erik Kluzek Boulder CO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:06:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Hoshinsool, One-steps, Two-steps,Three-steps? On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Brian Woodard wrote: > .....Exiting lurk mode. > I have a question for all the TKDers out there. I have read where several > schools also include in the curriculum Hoshinsool, one-steps, > two-steps,escapes, even five-step techniques. In our school the curriculum > is basically forms,free sparring, and one-steps. My question is what is > Hoshinsool (sp?)in your perspective schools? > There really isn't a standard way to spell Korean words in English (although there are different "standard" romanizations). Anyway, Ho-shin-sool is close enough... Fo "Ho-sin-sool" (we also call it "self-defense") we practice getting out of basic grappling holds. The main ones we work on are: Hand grabs (same and cross grab, as well as two-handed grab). front choke sleeper choke and neck hold hair grab. lapel grab. front and back bear hug (with and without hands free) grabs to the sleeve. pushing. tackle Then there's also defense against knife and gun attacks. We use three step sparring as a more introductory sparring drill. For white belts three-step is always done on the same side. The only difference between three-step and one-step is there are three punches to block in three-step. One-step only has one punch to defend against. There are two "2-step sparring drills" I've learned. In one you start with a punch much like one-step sparring. But, after the punch is blocked the opponent has two kicks to throw, then I have two kicks, they have two more, and I end with two kicks. For this one, I can throw as many hand techniques as I want, and a kick is counted when I set it down (so I can kick all day with one leg and thats still one kick). You also try to lead the opponent in with the first technique without blocking, and then block the second one and immediatly counter. This allows you to work on hand and kicking techniques, rythmn, blocking and movement. The other 2-step sparring is about the same with the only difference that you count every individual technique (so hand techniques count, and each kick counts as well). We also do "instant sparring". This starts from a relaxed stance. The idea is that you are talking to someone and suddenly they strike at you -- what do you do? With this one you can practice different starting postures, and different starting distances. Your starting stance is always a relaxed stance (i.e. not an agressive "fists up" posture). To function you have the one who will strike keup, then the defender will keup. Sometime after that the first one will strike, and the other one needs to defend and counter. To start with I always have people do a hand technique to the head. Then hand-technique anywhere. And finally both hand and kicking techniques. It's a fun drill, has you work on different distances and starting positions, and requires a "relaxed" or empty-mind. Erik Kluzek Boulder CO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: "Tae Kwon Do" Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:07:26 PDT Subject: the_dojang: IJF ? ? ? Has anyone heard of the "International Jidokwan Federation"? Thnxs, Tim ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 07:17:02 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Goodbye for now Donna, Wishing you all the best in your studies. Hope it all goes great for you, both in tech school and in the dojang. Keep in touch, and come back when you can. Alain ------------------------------ From: "Ryan Shroyer" Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:33:05 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The (Shamelessly) Unofficial Taekwondo Hyung Resource Page Ray Terry wrote: >> Do you personally practice all these forms? Karel van der Walt wrote: >> did you know all of these forms at one or other time? While I'd love to say that I know and practice all the patterns on my site, I'm not superhuman (or a 9th degree for that matter). I practice the Palgue, Taeguek and Chang-Hon (ITF) patterns, as well as several Shotokan patterns that have been variously imported into Taekwondo. Most of the other pattern sets (Kuk-Mu, Ki-Cho, etc.) I only learned in a particular dojang in order to maintain my rank at that school. Sadly, I have forgotten much of these lesser known patterns. A qualifying note: I have only been formally tested in the Taegeuk, Palgue and WTF black belt patterns through Taebaek. In the Chang-Hon pattern set I have tested through Ko-Dang (my instructor didn't teach the newer Juche.) However, all of the patterns -- including those that I have not been tested for -- have been verified by a variety of 'real-life' sources in addition to print and video publications. Respectfully, Ryan Shroyer ------------------------------ From: "Ryan Shroyer" Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:33:06 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: RE: learning forms in advance Atchinson, Kerry M wrote: >> In my experience it's bad form ( pun intended ) to attempt to learn a >> form before your instructor shows it to you or allows someone else to. >> What's the concensus? Just to blurt out my two cents on this thread: I really feel it's a VERY bad idea to learn patterns in advance of your rank or before proper instruction for two reasons. 1.) No resource -- whether it be a book, video, CD or web site -- can show you every intricacy of a pattern that you should (in theory) know before moving along to the next level. No resource even comes close to giving you what the combined effort of master instructors and dedicated fellow students contribute to your knowledge of a pattern. 2.) (And this is the biggest, by far.) Learning a pattern in advance detracts from your ability to perfect your current form, no matter how well you think you know it. This might seem like common sense, but let me expand that statement a bit. I firmly believe that you should practice a form at least 300 times before being considered for a test. (If you go to class three times a week for six months, practicing once every class, that's only 78 times!) Maybe this is being too difficult, but I personally don't believe so. This was the standard set by my first instructors. And, since leaving them, I have seen far too many black belts (of all levels) at other schools stumble over movements or simply forget entire sections of patterns that they learned in their gup ranks. To me (and maybe I'm alone here, but) this is absolutely appalling! It goes against everything a black belt should be (expert, dedicated practitioner, teacher, role model). Again, though, just my two cents. respectfully, Ryan Shroyer ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:19:37 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Learning forms early Question about learning forms, in general. For the Instructors out there: do you like just jumping in and teaching the form, or do you start with "here's what you'll see that is new in this form"? Personally, I like starting with developing solid technique on those moves that are "new" to that form - then when you actually get to that part of the form, it is no longer a "new" move. For everyone: what approach do you like better when you are learning? The, "Okay, here's the first 12 moves" approach, or "Okay, your new form has several square blocks in it.....here is how to properly perform a square block. Let's do some floor drills with them, etc.....Now, let's start to learn the form......"???? Just curious....just because I like to teach the basics first, doesn't really mean that's the way most people like to learn the form. Mark Lasich mark.lasich@alcoa.com *************************************************************** Planning your next home improvement project? Check out zContractor to find your next Contractor http://www.zcontractor.com/ *************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 6:31:26 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #498 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.