From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #500 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 27 July 2000 Vol 07 : Num 500 In this issue: the_dojang: Learning forms the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #499 the_dojang: WTF Poomsae the_dojang: McDojang the_dojang: Skipping ahead... the_dojang: New Thread Re: the_dojang: Re: learning forms the_dojang: Tae Geuk creator / slow movements... the_dojang: Re: 1-step and 3-step sparring the_dojang: Standard forms and Kukkiwon the_dojang: Re: Ho Shin Sool; Ken McD; Master Whalen the_dojang: Comment of ICHF VP posting the_dojang: Ken McD the_dojang: RE: learning forms the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 920 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mac" Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:06:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Learning forms Rudy T. <> I remember getting a chance to work out with another BB once, he was very experienced, I believe more than I at the time (we were both BBs). I thought it was going to be great, getting to work out with another advanced student to get a chance to go over the more advanced forms. He walked out on the floor, put his hands behind his back, and began going through the very first basic form pattern with only stances. This did catch me off guard. I was expecting to work on advanced forms, and he began by working on the very first form, and not even working on the blocks/strikes, just the stances and footwork. Made me think and re-evaluate what was important. I walked out on the floor and joined him. :-) Mac ------------------------------ From: LJSFLEM@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:59:42 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #499 In a message dated 7/26/00 7:31:34 PM !!!First Boot!!!, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Sparring and one-steps don't pose much of a problem >> I prefer forms. Learning and doing them daily has given me improved concentration. 2 years ago, I was nervous all the time. This has improved, also. Sparring still makes me freeze. I need to examine why. Lorraine, NJ ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:24:59 EDT Subject: the_dojang: WTF Poomsae Dear Ray and Group: I took a minute to click on the "WTF Poomsae" link provided on your page. I only briefly looked at two patterns and spotted an error in each. To me, this casts doubt about the whole site, so I'd like to recommend caution in promoting this link. Sincerely, SESilz ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:36:39 EDT Subject: the_dojang: McDojang Dear Ray and List: I am interested in opening a McDojang franchise in my town. How much do you think I can net per year and whom shall I contact for a license? Will I have to graduate from McDojang U.? SESilz ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:48:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Skipping ahead... In a message dated 7/26/00 6:13:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > ust to blurt out my two cents on this thread: > I really feel it's a VERY bad idea to learn patterns in advance of your rank > or before proper instruction for two reasons. > > 1.) No resource -- whether it be a book, video, CD or web site -- can show > you every intricacy of a pattern that you should (in theory) know before > moving along to the next level. No resource even comes close to giving you > what the combined effort of master instructors and dedicated fellow students > contribute to your knowledge of a pattern. > > 2.) (And this is the biggest, by far.) Learning a pattern in advance > detracts from your ability to perfect your current form, no matter how well > you think you know it. I could not have said it better myself: Students, stick to the curriculum you sabom has you working on and do not worry about what may come next. Do not bug your seniors or friends to show you the next form or technique. It is both disrespectful to your sabom and bad for your development. SESilz ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:07:41 EDT Subject: the_dojang: New Thread Dear List: I have found, basically, that kicks are introduced in one of two ways in virtually every dojang I have seen. Either techniques are introduced more or less one-at-a-time, with the next technique being taught after reasonable competence is shown with the prior one. This, BTW, is how I was taught and how I teach. I later encountered schools where pretty much every kick is presented at the white belt level. At first, I thought this to be an abomination, but l later recognized that these studios managed to produce quality students, too. In fact, though they were pretty terrible early on, by the time they had practiced several years and became decent in technique, they had the advantage of possessing roughly equal facility with all their kicks in sparring. My students, on the other hand may have been more masterful with their roundhouse kicks earlier on, but had difficulty incorporating back hook kick, for example, in their sparring. Any thoughts or observations regarding this contrast in teaching methodology? SESilz ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:33:56 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: learning forms On Wed, 26 Jul 2000 TKDAZZKIKR@aol.com wrote: > I just wanted to thank everyone who has and continues to post on the subject > of learning forms. This is probably my biggest stumbling block in TKD. > Sparring and one-steps don't pose much of a problem, but when it comes to my > forms, it's like my brain shuts down completely! I really appreciate all the > insight I've gained reading the posts on this subject! > Stephanie > ------------------------------ This applies to the "how to teach forms" thread as well. One thing I've noticed especially from teaching forms is that different people learn in different ways. I've also noticed that Stephanie is very much not alone! There are many people that have an expecially difficult time picking up forms. Some people learn primarily intellectually, or from hearing, some visually, some are hands on and just have to do it over and over again. What I ussually do is to lead everyone through it several times so they start to get a feel for it. Then I'll start explaining some of the philosphy and methodologie. And of course we put movements from the forms we are learning into basics and sparring drills. Somebody talked about breaking the form up into smaller bits and go through them over and over. I think this is something I need to do more of. Anyway, back to my point. Different people learn differently and it's important to teach such that those that have different learning patterns will be able to pick it up. I did some tutoring in college for people with learning disabilities. Before I started tutoring they taught me about different learning disabilities. Calling it learning disability actually emphasizes the wrong point. It's really that some people are good at learning only through one mechanism. Really all of us are like that -- we learn best in one mode. I tend to be more visual, if I can see it I can figure it out. Some people have to hear it and some have to touch it -- they have to feel it and do it. If you figure out the best way for you to learn you can concentrate on that method. As instructors you need to make sure you use all methods, since different students will learn differently. Erik Kluzek Boulder CO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:15:01 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: Tae Geuk creator / slow movements... On Wed, 26 Jul 2000 Emactkd@aol.com wrote: > I would be interested to meet the creator of the Tae Geuk forms. I think it > was most probably a committee result, not the work of a single individual, > which makes it hard to really grasp what was meant at the time. > It was a committee. The list of members has got to be on one of the history pages, but for the life of me I can't find it... > I was taught that form is imaginary sparring. But the way forms are now > performed it is hard to see the combat in them. The slow motion aspect of > form as it is performed in most tournaments is very far from any fight I ever > imagined. > You have to keep in mind that there are a lot of tradiational Japanese Karate styles that have a lot of forms with slow tension moves in them. San Chin is a very common Kata that has slow movements with tension. These are forms that have been around for a lot longer than 20 years. Although, interestingly different styles do them differently and some styles don't have the tension in them that are characteristic of many styles. There are several styles of Goju that are famous for these slow movements. Not to take away your argument however. Whether people should add this stuff just for show is quite another question... Erik Kluzek Boulder CO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:52:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: 1-step and 3-step sparring George Responce to your reply to my message. I want to clarify some things I said, agree with some excellent points you made, and then explain some other things. My original message was long enough as it was -- so I didn't want to give a complete dissertation on all of the aspects of the drills. > 1-step sparring is designed to teach basic movement, blocks and strikes. > 3-step sparring is designed to teach (primarily) maintaining distance > and timing relative to an attacker--you move when/as they move. > 2-step sparring is designed to teach using movement to create your own > openings and targets--whereas in 3-step sparring you move in cadence > with your attacker, in 2-steps you deliberately break that rhythm. > Yes! This is a excellent consise explaination for each drill. Since some people aren't familiar with these drills at all, I wanted to give an introduction to what you do with each. But, I would agree with the analysis you give here. Actually I didn't know other groups did 2-step sparring. But, if you know about "breaking the rhythm" you must do something close to what we do... > Erik also mentioned that his school uses 3-step sparring as an introduction > to > sparring for white belts. This may be fine, but if that's all it's used > for, > then it is not being used to it's full potential for training and learning. > Let me explain a little more. The statement I said was we use 3-step as an introductory sparring drill for white belts. The most dynamic part of 3-step is the retaliation. This is the part that you can use to practice almost any type of attack and defense. This is also the part that is the same between 3-step and one step. Once students are competent in 3-step I want them to concentrate on the last part by using 1-step drills. Once my timing, judging of distance, and speed is such that I can block the three punches thrown as fast as possible -- I'm not getting that much more out of 3-step than 1-step. You can change the drill slightly to do so however. For example, use different blocks instead of the ones you typically use. I suppose you could also allow the punching to become something different -- for example front kick. I've done three step with different blocks, but not different attacks -- I think that might be a good idea. Anyone else done that? Students will continue to use both one and three step beyond white belt. But, we deliberatly place more emphasis on 1-step after yellow belt. There's a satement in our training manual that says something about how one step represents the ultimate in martial arts training since it means defending and retaliating to agression with a single deabilitating blow. Anyway, we place a little greater emphasis on 1-step over 3-step. When testing I have white belts do 3-step only. Yellow belts will usually do 1-step only. But, after that you'll probably do both. Not, all schools emphasize 1-step over 3-step. Some probably emphasize 3-step over 1-step, and others might treat all the same. Erik Kluzek Boulder CO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: YMCATKD@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:17:13 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Standard forms and Kukkiwon Hello all....missed a few days here so my responses are couple of days late........ <<>> Sorry to say but this is totally false. The Kukkiwon recognises The Taeguek forms as the primary forms and Palgwe as secondary. This came straight from the Kukkiwon when I was there. There are instructors that promote people based on other sets of forms however all instructors promoting through Kukkiwon direct or in this country the USTU should be teaching the Taeguek forms. <<>> Your certificates should be coming from either the Kukkiwon or the USTU......be careful about certificates coming from the Kwans as they may not be actual Kukkiwon certificates. The Kukkiwon is responsible for Dan Certificatation......the WTF is responsible for spreading TKD as a sport. <<>> Kukkiwon TKD is what most would call the older style of TKD versus the sport version. The WTF is responsible for spreading the sport of TKD. ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 03:23:26 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ho Shin Sool; Ken McD; Master Whalen Hapkido 1st Dan curriculum consists of kicks (jok sool), strikes (???), breakfalls (nak bup), and self-defense techniques (ho shin sool). Self defense techniques consists of strikes (chigi), locks (guhk-ki), and throws (dunjigi). When I look at Taekwondo and Hapkido ho-shin-sool, they differ in that hapkido's techniques have a much more flowing and circular motion. I already posted a comparison between Taekwondo and Hapkido, so moving on... Ken McD, are you still interested in training in Korea. Since you background is KukSool Hapkido, I think that you should contact KiDoHae. They may have a KukSool master instructor in Seoul or Pusan that speaks decent English. The World KiDo Association website, www.kidohae.com, has telephone numbers for their Seoul and Pusan offices. You should consider teaching English at a "hagwon" if you're considering staying in Korea for a long period. Mr. Alain Buresse did it and he enjoyed it. The hagwon will cover your plane trip, pay you to teach, and help you get an apartment. It's a pretty good deal in order to train. As most of you know, I am a member of Moo-Ye-Kwan and tested for KHA first dan under Masters Whalen and McCarty this past January. I currently train at Korea Hapkido Federation Chun Do Kwan Central Dojang under Grandmaster Yu, Chun-hee who taught Master Whalen's teacher, Master Won, Kil-soo. Grandmaster Yu's history in Hapkido is an extremely long one. He has pictures of Hapkido master "gatherings" that include him alongwith Choi Yong Sool and Ji Han Jae. The most interesting thing is that most of the techniques that I learned from Moo-Ye-Kwan is identical to Grandmaster Yu's Chun Do Kwan. Chun Do Kwan is very prominent as there are affiliate schools in the US, Spain, (perhaps Mexico or Brazil) and associates in Japan. If Master Whalen's techniques are the same as Grandmaster Yu's, that tells me that Master Whalen does have legitimate lineage to Hapkido as it is taught in Korea. Although my gym (and I) are KHF, I am glad to call Master Whalen one of my instructors. Sincerely, Mike ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 03:54:10 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Comment of ICHF VP posting I know that I'm referring to an email way back in the past, but as I recall, someone posted ICHF Vice President's (Jurgen Schmidt?) response regarding President J. Pelligrini's varied background. He commented that any CEO would love to hire someone that has experience in so many organizations. Having worked two years at JP Morgan, one of the most prestigious finacial firms in the world, and currently interning at the Korean National Assembly, I have only thing to say, "it depends." Having experience in so many organizations can be advanteous. If one lists all the organizations they've been in on one's resume, the hiring employer should be able to obtain positive recommendations from all of the candidate's previous managers. On the other hand, one can have 20 organizations on their resume, but if they couldn't stay in the organization for a long period and their previous managers do not give a good recommendation, then a good employer would not hire that individual, especially for a senior executive position. Why do I say all this. I have Grandmaster Myung, Kwang Sik's book Hapkido Special Self-Protection Techniques, where there is a photo of the World Hapkido Federation General Assembly(?). ICHF President Pelligrini is in the photo. I have also seen magazine ads in the past for Hapkido "Double Barrelled" Seminars with GM Myung and ICHF Pres. Pelligrini. Personally, I cannot see Grandmaster Myung accepting ICHF President's transfer over to World KiDo Association under Grandmaster Seo, In Suh. Korean society doesn't work that way. Loyalty is an extremely important principle to Koreans because person-to-person relationship is the basis of society. Heck, Korean scholars even have debated on the whole issue, whether there are 3 or 7 key relationships (the 3/7 debate). If Pelligrini was Myung's disciple (as a member of WHF, he would be considered as one), then basically the parent-child relationship would apply. Grandmaster Myung would have taken personally responsibility to support and nurture his disciple, then-Master Pelligrini, to be a prominent senior in the organization. then-Master Pelligrini would have the understood obligation to help build WHF and take care of its head, Grandmaster Myung. To just switch over to another organization, would be considered disloyal as it shows ungratefulness. Although there are dojangs nearer to my apartment than Hapkido Chun Do Kwan Central Dojang, I go there because of my loyalty to Master Whalen who has lineage to that school. The good thing is that Grandmaster Yu recognizes the relationship has extended every courtesy, treating me as his own family, since I have decided to continue my training at his school. Having a varied background is great, as long as its based on mutual respect and loyalty. My post is not a criticism of ICHF, its curriculum, or ESPECIALLY its members. Rather, I question ICHF President's switch from World Hapkido Federation to World Kido Association. (Sorry Ray for the extremely long post.) Sincerely, Michael Choi ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 04:04:43 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Ken McD Sorry Ken, I just checked the www.kidohae.com website and I couldn't find any numbers for Korea. (I have seened numbers for the Korea offices on the ads in Taekwondo Times magazine.) I know someone that probably has the numbers, but I do not want to publicly post their name, plus I forgot your email. So just send me an email, and I will try to get KiDoHae's Korean numbers for you. Sincerely, Michael Choi ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Ryan Shroyer" Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:21:03 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: RE: learning forms >> what approach do you like better when you are learning? Personally, I like to have the entire pattern shown to me at once. I need to learn the movements in one day. I don't have them perfect (or even satisfactory) after just one run-through, but I need to see the pattern as a whole, not parts. I don't know if others feel this same way, but I can't learn the movements when they're disjointed from the overall picture. Maybe it's just me. I had an instructor who was teaching me a pattern set I had not learned yet who would only show me the first 4 or 5 movements. Then the next 5 or 6 on the next class day. Then the next on the day after... and so on and so on. Nothing aggravated me more. I find it really distracting to learn the pattern in "blocks". And, while I understand the importance of learning newly introduced techniques, I have to have the 'pattern' down first. When instructing, though, I think it's obvious (from the other points of view posted) that most instructors need to have a variety of tools available to them when approaching students. Everyone learns differently. So, instead of teaching it the way I learned it, I try (sometimes successfully) to teach it the way the student wants to learn it. Respectfully, Ryan Shroyer ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 6:34:45 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #500 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.