From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #517 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 3 Aug 2000 Vol 07 : Num 517 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Poom vs Dan the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #516 the_dojang: re: Poom vs Dan the_dojang: Re: Master Tomlinson and the other list the_dojang: Re: Follow Ups the_dojang: Re:poom vs dan the_dojang: newsletter the_dojang: Newsletter the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 910 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:11:16 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Poom vs Dan Michael Rowe wrote: << have seen 8 year olds that have things to teach 48 year olds. I have also seen snot nosed punks that have little redeeming value. >> Well said, Michael. I've also seen 48 year olds that had nothing of value to teach 8 year olds. : ) As always, when it comes to humans, your best bet is probably to evaluate the individual circumstances. Sally SallyBaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Stickfighter27@cs.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:13:58 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #516 Thanks for the replies on the Dan/Poom thing. I just wanted some others insight on this and I tend to have mixed feelings about it as well. IMHO I feel that those who start out at such an early age and make it to the rank of black belt if they are of sound mind and body but yet under the age of 16 should hold as a black belt until they reach that age and then be able to start up the lader then. But that also would burn the child out quikly and he would feel as though he is wasting his time so In a sense Im sure their are pluses and minuses with this topic. By no means was this an attack on anyone who has ever been advanced up the ranks and so forth quikley and I know their are people like myself who just advance quickly It was just odd to hear of a 15 yr old 4th dan. I have spared him a few times and he is good (for a 15 yr old) but for me too say he can beat a 27 yr old man with twice as many yrs in the martial arts than he does is absurd. I have just recently talked with him cause he lives not to far from me and I see him walkin around and throwing his wieght around and so on. He pushed a kid down for no reason one day and I went on to scold him about his repetation to uphold as a black belt never the less as a 4th degree black belt. But Kids will be kids no matter what. Well thanks for the replies. Hope to be available for more topics. Cory ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:19:11 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: re: Poom vs Dan I know every organization is different, but with the ATA you have to be at least 16 to test for 3rd Dan, 21 for 4th. So, if you get 4th at 21: 4th 21 years old 5th 25 years old 6th 30 years old You could become "eligible" for Mastership at 31, since you have to be a 6th Dan for at least a year before being *considered*. However, the title is not a given, there are certain criteria that one must meet in developing themselves, others, supporting the organization, etc. I personally like the thought that being awarded the title Master is more than just being a certain rank or age. Outside this, however, I would like think that every 'Master' has not only earned their title, but can live up to the full meaning, integrity, humility and responsibility that come with wearing such a title! Ideal worlds do exist, but sometimes only in my mind ;-) Mark Lasich mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Master Tomlinson and the other list Master Tomlinson noted, in part: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:43:11 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Master Whalen The matter that I commented on had to do with another chat board and this is where Master Whalen's credentials were questioned. I don't have access to that list but was sent a copy. The people that are in question and wrote the remarks are also on this list and they know who they are. So know one take offense in my comments please they were only meant to clarify the act of Master Whalen sending a video tape to Korea when he received his 7th dan. Michael Tomlinson> Response: Curious, is the other list the infamous TKD list ? This is the list wherein if you post here you are automatically banned from that list ? This is the list run by a pea brain who has a personal grudge against the moderator of this list ? The list where people are afraid to post here since they know they will be removed from the pea brained list ? Is it that list. I know it can't be Martial Science list since I understand the moderator of that list also had a run it with the TKD list guru. Just curious why we talk in vague language. Cheers, McD... P.S. Master Whalen is a true martial artist. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:28:11 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Follow Ups >>For some reason, when students begin to learn ho sin sool they find >> >>itdificult (at times) making the transition to working with a partner. >At my Dojang, the first time we practice a self-defense technique, it's >against a partner. There's just no way a GUP student can perform a "ho >sin >sool" correctly against an imaginary opponent unless they've done >it >against a real person dozens of times. I think teaching them >against a >person the first time is the only way to have it taught to >me, so that I >don't perform the technique improperly and have to train >myself to do it >correctly all over again. >..............................iain... Let me clarify. We always teach ho sin sool with partners (hard to do a joint lock when there are no joints to lock). What I wanted to say was that going from normal kicking and punching in class, even in sparring, to joint locks, throws, etc. can be pretty complicated. You have to make sure their body is going in the right direction, that you are going in the right direction, etc. Sparring can be tough, of course, but it's almost a whole nother ball game with ho sin sool (ALMOST). My whole point was that partner practice was essential, but different than partner practice in sparring. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:15:44 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:poom vs dan Stickfighter27@cs.com Posted the following comments. >My question is I've always heard that If your a Jr. Blackbelt or under a >certain age you cannot obtain the title of a "black belt DAN" I've heard of >it more on the Poom rank. >Why am I asking? Well he my Ex instructor has been promoting kids at the >early age of 11 and sometimes earlier to Black belt and giving them the Dan >rank title. He actually has one student who is 15 yrs old and a 4th Dan a >Master in TKD at 15 yrs old. I have a problem with this one due to this >"child" has no idea what life is really about at such an early age. Never >the less what it means holding and accepting the title of a Martial Arts >Master at the age of 15. He tends to walk around and thinks he is really >someone. I have seen him on the streets and talked with him and shared my >opinion about his attitude and what it means to even be a black belt period. >I am a 2nd Dan black belt but Im 27yrs old and have been a Black belt for at >least 10 yrs. I never advanced up the Dan ranks due to I havnt gotten back >into a class room environment one because of I dont know of any around my >area that Im comfortble learning with to pick back up where I left off. So I >mostly train with others on a more private lessons. I dont really care much >about the ranks and titles all that much... My concern is if this Master the >6th dan keeps promoting kids at an early age to Dan Ranks and keeps so called >Master titles before the age of 16 wich is totally irrelevent. I was at a >tourny last year and one of his students 16 was a 3rd dan caught alot of >strife from others in other schools about his rank and what he was calling >himself. But in reality he didnt know any better cause he has been led to >believe he can be called a 3rd dan. In my research and understanding one >dont even be considered 1st dan until he reaches the age of 16 up until then >its "Poom" correct me if Im wrong please. >Thanks >Independently training the past 10 yrs. >Cory At the school I attend (headed by a wonderful Korean grand master) the youth who have attained black belt status are referred to as holding "poom" rank, not "dan" rank. As I understand it (I'll never experience it being a 45 year old geez) the "dan" title is not conferred until age 16. Also it is my understanding that the Kukkiwon will not give dan certification to someone under the age of 16. (I read this somewhere, darned if I recall where, so please accept that with a grain of salt.) Personally (I am NOT a master, nor even close), I find the awarding of black belts to tykes that are under the age of 16 a bit disconcerting. The experience level, not to mention the control, and demeanor, of most pre-adolescents is not equivalent to what I believe should be required for a "black belt". That said, it is also true that not all 16 year olds are created equal, and some 12 year olds are more mature than 18 year olds(or even 45 year olds), and so on...I am quite certain there are under 16 year olds quite deserving of high "poom" ranking, I am also quite certain there are others who are not. I have watched several young high school age persons go through the belt ranks and achieve 1st dan/poom, after which they are never seen at the dojang again. But, the fact of the matter is that these same things happen to students of ALL ages, so perhaps it is a function more of personality than age. I am puzzled by one aspect of your post. It seems that you don't care to see under 16 year olds awarded Dan ranks, yet, if I read your message correctly, you would have had to have received your black belt at around the age of 14 or 15. I cipher this by taking your age (27) less the ten years you have been training independently (10) less the 2 year wait between 1st & 2nd "dan". This gives me the tender age of 15 when you were a 1st "dan". Perhaps my math is wrong, or I misread your message. But if this is really the case, why would you not want others to receive the same opportunities as yourself ? Please do not take my comments as a flame, no disrespect is intended at all, I am simply curious. Respectfully, dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?A.C.?=" Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: newsletter If I may, what is the name of the infamous newsletter that is alluded to and won't allow people subscribing to this newsletter to subscribe to theirs? _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:19:21 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Newsletter > If I may, what is the name of the infamous newsletter > that is alluded to and won't allow people subscribing > to this newsletter to subscribe to theirs? The list in question is probably the tkd_net list. Given the situation, this probably needs to go out again. Now that it has I'd rather not get into another long thread about them and their problems. If you can't say anything good, then say nothing... Ray - ----------------------------------------------------------------- It has been several months since we have had to mention this sillyness... But it is time to mention it again for our many new subscribers, as several have unfortunately been contacted by this individual. From a February issue of the_dojang: >We at the_dojang continue to encourage folks to be active on any and all MA >lists and/or newsgroups. But unfortunately the following is what is being >sent to many of the_dojang's subscribers. So very sad that this has been >occurring for over two years now... > > > "Also, you should be aware that tkd net has a boycott on Dojang > Digest, because of the inappropriate disrespectful behavior of the > list owner, Ray Terry, and if you post there again, either from this > address or XXXX@YYY.ZZZ, we will have to unsubscribe you from tkd net. > Sorry, but that is the current policy." > > >See issues v05.n115, v05.n121, v05.n209, v05.n320, and v06.n121 of the_dojang >for directions that I posted, and issue v05.n339 for directions another >person posted, on how to join the above list. Of course, past issues of the_dojang are freely available for online searching to all those actively researching the KMAs. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:24:26 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #517 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.