From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #518 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 4 Aug 2000 Vol 07 : Num 518 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Poom vs Dan the_dojang: Taekwondo the_dojang: Black Belt the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #517 the_dojang: Poom and Dan the_dojang: Re: Poom/Dan the_dojang: One Shot Kill the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #516 the_dojang: Re: Junior Black Belts the_dojang: Korea 2000 the_dojang: Re: Anita asks about the other list/TKD net=brief reply the_dojang: Re: Belaboring a point=The TKD net issue the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #517 the_dojang: Mst. Whalen the_dojang: One Kick One Punch the_dojang: off line ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 910 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 18:34:44 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Poom vs Dan Stickfighter27 wrote: << It was just odd to hear of a 15 yr old 4th dan. >> I recently heard of this one -- a 6-year-old 2nd Poom (Kukkiwon) -- who had trained in Korea since he was 4 years old. His parents are returning to the states and wanted to find a dojang for him. He achieved his 1st Poom at age 5 and 2nd at age 6. That works out to Grandmaster (6th Dan) status at 21! (Assuming he stays "on track.") Sally SallyBaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 18:48:38 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Taekwondo In regard to Black Belt in Taekwondo, I think that it really depends on what association you are being promoted under. My son has been practicing and training in the Martial Arts in a formal class room environment since the age of 4. He is presently rated as a 2nd Dan in Han Moo Kwan Taekwondo directly under Grandmaster Kyo Yoon Lee, who is the founder of Han Moo Kwan. My son has practiced every day for the past 12 years either at the Dojang or at our home. I realize that he is the exception to the rule but I feel that it is extremely unfair to judge his rank based on his age. He has helped numerous adults get to their Black Belt. He has proven himself time and time again. His skill is superior to most adults and yet while he has never showed off or conducted himself in a manner less than what I consider to be true Black Belt form, people continue to make comments about his rank due to his age. I feel that judging someone based on age is all to often done in the Martial Arts. He has had the benefit of training with some of the top Grandmasters in Korean as well as Japanese Martial Arts. Just to name a few he has attended seminars with Grandmaster Choi, Han Young, Grandmaster Ji, Han Jae, Dr. He Young Kim and participated in all of the Hapkido drills without consideration to his age. He worked out in Taekwondo with numerous black Belts and Masters over the years as well as directly under Grandmaster Kyo, Yoon Lee. In addition he was trained in Shinkendo under Soke Obata and some of Soke's Black Belts. I apologize for the length of this post however this is a subject that strikes a nerve. I have seen many Black Belts that do not have the skills and have not put the time or effort into their training that my son has, yet but because they are OLD enough they get promoted. Good training and hard work are the bases for Black Belt excellence. My son has never taken a short cut or asked to have his age considered a factor. When he was 14 he competed in a Grappling tournament against grownup that were 24, 26 and 27 they were amazed to find out his age as well as disappointed because he choked 2 of them out and held the other to a draw. Enough said enjoy your training and don't worry about age, it is just a number. The question should be does the person have the skill for the level he is claiming to hold? 4th Dan at 15 not likely. Kwan Jang Dan Rogers ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:01:33 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Black Belt Great post Mr. Rowe, very good points on all accounts. Dan Rogers ------------------------------ From: Stickfighter27@cs.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:09:45 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #517 well this is more to the question you asked Dave Weller\\\ I may of stated wrong what my yrs was in fact.. I have been a black belt for approx 10 yrs... lets see.. I started when I was 14 yrs old (white belt) I recieved my 1st dan at the ripe ol age of 18 then went to the Army then I just basically stoped training for the past 9 yrs or so. Of wich I just started my TKD training again about a yr ago wich I was promoted to 2nd Dan of wich was about a 10 yr difference. Im sorry I didnt make that more clear. I just started writing and never really read what I was writing.. I do that alot. So In those 10 yrs I pretty much was just freelancing it. Until last yr where I picked up learning under Master White in ChundoKwan TKD where he granted me the 2nd dan rank and I stoped training under him about 4 or 5 months ago due to differences. Now I have been more training in the FMA's Serrada / Kali / Silat wich "no disrespect" I have found is what I have been searching for. I have given it some thought to continue my training in TKD but as far as any Instructors here that I would be able to pick up where I left off is highly doubtful. Mostly Shori Ryu Karate Schools and I think one TangSooDo school wich I never really checked out I may soon. But I find it easier for me to find solo's to train with to spar with and share knowledge as far as that goes instead of a class room type setting. I got a few guys with different martial arts backgrounds who we all get together one or two nights a week and just work out.... I share some of my FMA knowledge and so on. So it works out better for me that way. Im at that stage to me that Rank dont mean anything to me its where my knowlege is and If I can share it and or someone can share thiers with me thats what I feel best suites me. As far as going to learn anything from another TKD or Karate Instructor as far as them showing me anything outside of Forms (kata, poomse) would be errogant of me but I feel its the same ol tournament type aspect wich I tend to get bored of quickly. I've boxed for a few yrs. Kickboxed, been in several street fights and I think I have my Fighting knowledge down to where Im comfortable with it. I cant win them all but I train to. I feel that the FMA empty hand gives me that edge to something different to expeirement with. Once again I wanted only to get an aspect on kids going thru the Dan ranks. Or even if it was legal inside the TKD guidelines. Each school has its own delima as far as how they rank thier students but this is the first I have ever seen with Kids as Dan's that was my only question. Thanks Cory ------------------------------ From: Kim Jones Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 17:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Poom and Dan Oiy, someone said that the Kukkiwon will not award a dan rank to anyone under the age of 16, which is true. The poom ranks are still degrees of black belt, but not dan...make sense? You could have gotten your first poom at the age of 14, and get your second dan at the age of 17. Receiving the poom rank and then becoming of age to receive the dan rank doesn't set you back. (Someone had the audacity the other day to infer that to me; I got it written down in some papers on their way to good ol' Purdue University that poom ranks up to 4th poom are awarded to minors under the age of 16.) This being said about poom, there's a concept I know some people who've trained in Korea are familiar with...the red and black "junior black" belt is the poom belt I've seen tiny elementary kids wear. (You see many cute little Korean elementary school kids walking home from their dojang in their dobok wearing their poom belt.) You do not see anyone over the age of 16 wearing the red-and-black poom belt in Korea. The question at hand: Why do instructors in the U.S. use the poom rank for students older than 16 (knowing that the poom rank is used for minors under 16)? I mean, aside from revenue issues. ===== ~kim~ =^_^= Purdue University, c/o '04 AOL IM: Lady Timberland ICQ# 52828008 http://kenochi_timberland.tripod.com/ <~homepage~> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Migukyong@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:00:48 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Poom/Dan I agree with the poom system. No one under 16 in my school is awarded the rank of dan. I personally feel that they have many obstacles still to overcome in order to gain the maturity of a dan holder. This does not mean they re-test at 16... they would simply convert to dan status upon the issuance of their next level. Frank ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:08:43 EDT Subject: the_dojang: One Shot Kill In a message dated 8/3/00 11:58:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Which just goes to prove Gen. Choi's philosophy: one kick or one punch to > finish your opponent! > > Taekwon > Robert Martin > I wouldn't jump to say the idea of the one-hit kill or "il kyuk pul sal" in Korean, originated with Mr. Hong Hi Choi, thereby making it His Philosophy. Rather, I believe, it is a fairly prevalent "philosophy" in Korean martial arts that Mr. Choi chose to promote to his students. SESilz ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:14:01 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #516 In a message dated 8/3/00 11:58:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > I am studying Mas Oyama right now and haven't run across this story before. > Naturally, I doubt Mr. Oyama would have done much to spread this story.... Actually, I heard if from several well-respected taekwondo masters from that era. Also, one of America's taekwondo leaders and former Olympian, while on a long plane ride back from Korea, had occasion to ask Mr. Park directly about whether or not this story was true. Mr. Park confirmed the story as I recounted it for you. I also heard it repeated by Mr. Park's son. SESilz ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 00:30:44 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Junior Black Belts In a message dated 8/3/00 3:06:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << IMHO I feel that those who start out at such an early age and make it to the rank of black belt if they are of sound mind and body but yet under the age of 16 should hold as a black belt until they reach that age and then be able to start up the lader then. But that also would burn the child out quikly and he would feel as though he is wasting his time so In a sense Im sure their are pluses and minuses with this topic. >> If they are getting burned out because they aren't raising in rank ... then they are studying martial arts for the wrong reason then in my opinion. And this is only my opinion. They should be taught that it isn't the rank that counts ... but the learning and the loving of what they are doing. You won't see 15 year old 4th dans in our school ... not even a 1st dan ... they will be Jr. Black Belts ... no dan. When they reach a sufficient age (at least 16 years of age) and the Instructor believes they are ready for the adult ranking then they will go for it then ... and that includes sparring men and/or women black belts to get there and no holding back. Also self defense with them ... and ground techiques with them. And it will be for 1st Dan. Illona ------------------------------ From: "G. Booth" Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 20:46:48 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: Korea 2000 Jesse, The 5 exercise were basically locks found in Hapkido, however the stretching exercises were preformed in a more ballistic motion to strengthen the wrists. GM Kim had VERY well developed wrists, take it from me, Dr Kimm and Master West we all agreed on that point. Regards Geoff PS. Please pass on my regards to Masters Whalen & McCarty for me. International Hapkido Alliance Australia Hapkido Group http://hapkido.netro.com.au "The art is in the person, all we have to do is bring it out" ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 04:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Anita asks about the other list/TKD net=brief reply Anita queried: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:54:53 -0400 (EDT)Subject: the_dojang: newsletter If I may, what is the name of the infamous newsletter that is alluded to and won't allow people subscribing to this newsletter to subscribe to theirs?> Response: I believe your referring to the infamous TKD net list. It is apparently run by some guy out of Hawaii who has had numerous run ins with various individuals. He has an ego and anger the size of the Lincoln Tunnel. He still carries a personal grudge against Ray Terry our honorable list moderator here. So, this guy (I think his name is Glenn) takes the grudge to the ultimate personal level by posting on his list that if you post to this list you will be banned from his list. The sad thing is that some well respected martial artists, who should know better, put up with that Neo-Nazi mentality. Moreover, it is believed that there are TKD moles hiding out in the bushes and reading our posts. They then go back to Glenn and report that people on his list are posting here. Then those respective individuals are subsequently and immediately dropped from the TKD net. I commented on the "pea brain" mentality in a post just previous to this digest. Sort of reminds you of the McCarthy era where they had black lists and people were ratting on each other. Or maybe the Cold War with the Mad Characters of Spy vs. Spy. Sad that an intelligent individual would succumb to moronic behavior. But, I keep moving on and not worry about it. Cheers, McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 04:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Belaboring a point=The TKD net issue I agree that we should not dwell on the antics of Glenn and the TKD net. However, I also believe that it is important to periodically get the word out to uniformed readers who are not aware of the complete facts. Then let educated readers make their own choices. Ray Terry, the Dojang List moderator, handles this well. There is no evidence that Ray, or any other individual, has stated you are not free to post to any list. You have that freedom of choice. This position alone should be enough for intelligent individuals to reach a logical conclusion. Having once belonged to the TKD net and tangled with that list moderator on purely different training perspectives, I can tell you I do not miss the ego's on that list. Nothing against any individual and I do not even have anything against Glenn. In fact, I am relieved that I do not have to read his "Quotes of the Day". I feel significantly better that I am free to post amid an atmosphere of freedom of choice. That is the key issue with me. When I think about what I miss not being on the TKD net I reach this conclusion: absolutely nothing ! Cheers, McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Tkdalpha@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 08:42:00 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #517 In a message dated 8/3/00 6:08:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Curious, is the other list the infamous TKD list ? This is the list wherein if you post here you are automatically banned from that list ? This is the list run by a pea brain who has a personal grudge against the moderator of this list ? The list where people are afraid to post here since they know they will be removed from the pea brained list ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>Given the situation, this probably needs to go out again. Now that it has I'd rather not get into another long thread about them and their problems. If you can't say anything good, then say nothing...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I though Dojang Digest was a moderated. I enjoyed this list last few months I been reading. I though this list was about respect? However allowing someone all of sudden use "pea brain" and attacking seems hypocritical to me. I agree with "If you can't say anything good, then say nothing." >>See issues v05.n115, v05.n121, v05.n209, v05.n320, and v06.n121 of the_dojang for directions that I posted, and issue v05.n339 for directions another person posted, on how to join the above list.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tried the directions. It does not work. Does such list really exist? Ted ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 05:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Mst. Whalen To those who doubt him, it is simple, visit his dojang and go on the mat with him. He is a good man and deserves respect, he has earned it. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 06:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: One Kick One Punch "Which just goes to prove Gen. Choi's philosophy: one kick or one punch to finish your opponent!" I believe it was Gichin Funakoshi who began that philosophy and Gen. Choi carried it on. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 7:01:47 PDT Subject: the_dojang: off line Folks, time to take the tkd_net chat off line to private email. Ok? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #518 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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