From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #520 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 4 Aug 2000 Vol 07 : Num 520 In this issue: the_dojang: Mas Oyama the_dojang: Han Moo Kwan the_dojang: Name Calling= a slight apology, re: the other list thread the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #519 the_dojang: Oral Traditions the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #519 the_dojang: The "other" list the_dojang: Re: Poom, Dan, and Nonsense the_dojang: We are back from Korea!!! the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #519 the_dojang: moving on ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 910 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:22:51 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Mas Oyama Oyama claimed to have learned Chinese Kempo in Korea prior to moving to Japan to continue his martial arts study. This is a common claim by many from that era, not that they learned Kempo but that they learned some art in Korea prior to moving to Japan. But given how early in life all/most left Korea for Japan, further investigation is probably required... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:33:09 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Han Moo Kwan Miss lllona, I would be happy to sent you a book by Grandmaster Kyo,Yoon Lee. This book has a list of all of his accomplishments to include when he founded the Han Moo Kwan. Send me your address and I will mail it to you. It is actually a good book about TaeKwonDo. Kwan Jang Dan Rogers ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Name Calling= a slight apology, re: the other list thread I honor the wishes of Ray Terry and have refrained from delving further into the TKD net issue. However, I merely answered a query from a reader who was interested to know what the facts were. In reviewing my post, I realize that my choice of the phrase "pea brain" was perhaps vulgar to some (not from my neighborhood though). But, I realize we should honor all individuals, including those who throw sand in our face, those who spread vicious lies, and those who have evil intent. Therefore, upon greater reflection I should have used other less virulent words, e.g., - - nincompoop - - lame - - idiotic - - stupid - - foolish - - moronic - - jaded - - narcissistic - - fashionably noodled - - ridiculously off the wall - - unbelievably out of this world ! - - the twilight zone - - and so forth In sum, the basic premise of turning your cheek works in certain circles. Father McConnel always told me to turn my Irish cheeks when the Italian boys would beat me up in elementary school. He was a true Catholic priest who never understood the pressures of the streets. However, there does come a time where it is not prudent to simply dismiss inappropriate behavior based on the premise that we must respect all individuals at all times ? Agreed, back to martial arts discussions. Thanks for the bandwidth. McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Tkdalpha@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 14:46:30 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #519 In a message dated 8/4/00 12:57:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Let's please refrain from insulting other people or lists in general. It is okay to say, "I had a bad experiecne there and choose to partake in this list," but we should refrain from calling names like "peabrained" etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree and I want to thank everyone for the private response about the list. I guess not everyone has a bad opinion about that list. I even got an invitation. Here is what the invitation says. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Korean Martial Arts" Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 6:15 PM Subject: Re: WTF Taekwondo I would like to invite you to join our email mailing list called tkd net. The tkd net mailing list is a place where Korean martial arts practitioners such as yourself can communicate with other like minded individuals across the world. While most of our members are from the US, there are many people from all over the world who participate with us. Among our US members are many who are active within the USTU as Elite Athletes, Coaches, International Referees, and administrators, including many who serve as USTU State Association Presidents/officers and other USTU national positions, including USTU Committee Chairpersons. If you are interested in the latest news and information regarding the USTU and WTF, then this list is for you, since you will not find a more up to date source anywhere on the internet. We also have many Tang Soo Do, Soo Bahk Do, ATA, GTF and ITF practitioners as well, as well as Hapkido, Sin Moo Hapkido, Combat Hapkido, Kuk Sool Won, Kuk Sool Hapkido, Hwarangdo, Kung Jung Moo Sool, Kido Hoi, Hwe Jeon Mu Sool, Hankido, Tu Kong Moo Sool, Han Mu Do, Taekkyon, Koong Do, Kumdo and other related practitioners, many of whom have trained in Korea extensively. Our list prides itself in being able to answer just about any question that can be posed regarding Korean Martial Arts techniques, history, culture or practices.We have 200+ members who are 4th Dan or higher who regularly post. With approximately 1000 members, we are the largest internet mailing list devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. If you are interested in joining our list, then please respond to this email and I will sign you up. If you later discover that tkd net is not for you, then again you can write to me and I will unsubscribe you. Either way, the list is free, since the tkd net mailing list is not a commercial venture. ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:18:51 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Oral Traditions In a message dated 8/4/00 9:56:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Ok, Thank you ... this is just word of mouth then? Indeed, this episode was passed to me orally and I don't know if it has been written about yet - except here on Ray's page. Whether this has any bearing on its factuality I couldn't say. Remember It was confirmed by eyewitnesses, however. I do know lots of people believe the bible even though many of its stories are known to have been passed for 500 or more years before being recorded on parchment. In fact, Ancient Hebrew, the original biblical language, was not a written language until about 1,200 to 1,400 years after God's covenant with Abraham when the Hebrew peoples 'borrowed' the written alphabet from their Phoenician (sp?) neighbors to the north. SESilz ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:29:56 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #519 In a message dated 8/4/00 9:56:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Also, what Korean style of MA did Mas Oyama study before going to Japan and > start his own style of karate ... Kyokushin? I believe you left that part > out ... and I was just curious as to what style it was. I am not an expert on this subject, but based on the time frame, I'd say it was likely to have been called either Kong Soo Do, Kwon Bup Bu or, maybe, Tang Soo Do. I'll bet someone out there knows as this is not just "oral tradition" but has been recorded for posterity. How about it, folks, any help? Kyokushin Karate sparring, however, does retain at least 2 Korean style characteristics that make it differ from the other Okinawan-cum-Japanese Karate-do like ShotoKan. They are 1. The full-contact format, and 2. The prohibition from face punching. SESilz ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:47:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: The "other" list From: Tkdalpha@aol.com <> Ted, the rest of us are just not as vocal and are trying very hard not to bring negativity, name calling, Glenn bashing etc. to this list. There are very many out here that have personal experience and feeling about the matter, but we just wish not to express it here. Check it out yourself (that same advice is how I found out about it). Go to the page: http://www.taekwondo.net/tkd-net/ Mac Ex-TKD-net club member ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:28:45 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Poom, Dan, and Nonsense At 10:01 AM 8/4/2000 -0400, you wrote: >The question at hand: Why do instructors in the U.S. use the >poom rank for students older than 16 (knowing that the poom rank >is used for minors under 16)? I mean, aside from revenue >issues. This and the earlier story about the 6 year old poom ranked individual simply prove once again what I've been saying for more than 30 years: rank and title and completely meaningless anymore. So why even discuss it? 99%+ of these rank holders have never even been taught the basics of their art. b ------------------------------ From: "Jere R. Hilland" Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:05:04 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: We are back from Korea!!! We pulled in the driveway a little before noon EST on Wednesday about 41 hours after checking out of the hotel in Beijing (Peking), China. It was a very long day! Several weeks ago, we arrived in Seoul, ROK and stayed two nights at the Olympic park hotel. We attended hapkido class taught by the number 2 man in the Kidohae. The president of the WHGF was with us for the week and we had dinner with such people as a taekyon master who is national treasure #79. When traveling to Kwangju we stopped at many places along the way such as the area that the founder of hapkido was taken as a child. We stopped at the War Memorial and the Independence Hall that had a fascinating section on the 3 Kingdom period. We visited many mountain temples and saw the old statues of the two fighters that everyone sees in just about every book on Korean martial arts history. We practiced sonmudo (zen martial arts) and sundo (zen) in several mountain temples. In the mountains near Taegu we met one of the founder of hapkido's original student who took us to the grave of the founder after stretching exercises and Dr. Kimm led a ceremony for us at the grave. We went to a hot spring and bathhouse that was a wonderful and relaxing experience. We never stayed at the same hotel for more than two nights and spent a great deal of time traveling from the NW corner to the SW corner of the ROK and from Kwangju to Taegu. The countryside is very beautiful. The cultural experience will last a lifetime. Kwangju was the capital of Silla and tombs of kings are very common in many sections. We visited one that had been excavated. After a little over a week in Korea we went to Beijing for 3 nights and saw everything from the Great Wall to the Forbidden City. Daily at sunrise we attended taichi classes at the local city park. I would guess that there were about a dozen classes going on at one time not counting the fan, sword and spear practitioners. I am leaving out many things we did and saw as I am going from memory and still have a bit of jet lag. Mrs. Booth and one of my students kept diaries and once they are organized I hope to post them on a website. I took 441 pictures and I think Master Renee West took more than I did. We know how to throw and kick as a Korean art practitioners, but seeing the history and experiencing the culture is something that every Korean art yudanja should do. Dr. Kimm's lectures, knowledge and stories concerning practice, history and culture were amazing and I am thankful for the opportunity to travel with him. Thanks to Master J. R. West, Dr. Kimm He-young and Mrs. Kimm for all the work they did and to Master Booth for holding class at 10 p.m. in the hotel parking lot. Jere R. Hilland http://homepages.go.com/homepages/j/r/h/jrhilland/HapkiDojang.html ------------------------------ From: CCasey8588@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:03:09 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #519 In regard to the arts studied by Masutatsu (Mas) Oyama before he founded his own art, Kykushinkai, I have found the following information which I hope helps your research. Masutatsu (Mas) Oyama, was born Yong-I Choi, on July 27, 1923, in the tiny village of Wa-Ryongri Yong-chi Myonchul Na Do, in South Korea. ...As a young child, nine years of age, Oyama began studying southern Chinese kempo under the instruction of Mr. Yi, an employee on the estate owned by Oyama's father. ----this is cited on page 5 of "Oyama: The Legend, The Legacy" by Michael J. Lorden published by Multi-Media Books It is interesting that Oyama disassociated himself from his Korean heritage by taking on a Japanese name along with its culture. It should be no surprise that your search to find his Korean roots are difficult. But I did find the following from another book: "Oyama studies Tang-Soo, Soo-bak, Kwonpu, Tae-kwon, Tae-kwanpup and Pakchigi, before he left home to attend the Yamanshi Youth Aviation Institute in Tokyo at the age of thirteen." ----this is quoted from page 79 of "Conversations with Karate Masters" by Dr. Clive Layton Oyama also receive a 4th Dan ranking in Goju-ryu and also studied Shotokan with that arts founder. I hope this helps. Charles ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 20:45:31 PDT Subject: the_dojang: moving on Thanks for posting the info on the tkd_net. As we have always done here, we encourage folks to participate on any and all martial arts lists. Too bad that others do not. We have a great many -former- members of that list here. Always ask why... why you won't find a similar post on that list. Now, please, no more about these folks. It really isn't worth our time. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #520 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.