From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #527 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 7 Aug 2000 Vol 07 : Num 527 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Hit Man movie the_dojang: tkd self defense the_dojang: Re: Worried about the street ? Response to Miguel the_dojang: Re:Hit Man movie the_dojang: Re: Paladin Press (Was Hit Man Movie) the_dojang: Rank and basics the_dojang: Re: Hit Man Book and movie the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #524 the_dojang: Korea-China, 2000 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 945 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:27:14 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hit Man movie Scott wrote: << I just saw the hit man movie on FX. I think paladin must be sick. While I agree everyone has the right to read and write what they want. I also beleave that they should be held accountable for what they say. >> I agree with Scott on this one. When I was growing up, there was a ruling (Supreme Court, I think) about the fact that you couldn't yell, "Fire!" in a crowded theater if there was no fire. The implication was that although yelling the word was innocent, it could cause panic and people could be badly hurt by the ensuing panic. Additionally, when the first airline hi-jackings began, Congress passed a law which is still in effect that says you can't even joke about having a bomb or a weapon on an airplane. So, yes, we have free speech. This is nothing new. It's just that sometimes we forget that freedom does have responsibilities to go along with it. Sally SallyBaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Tomlinson, Michael E." Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:40:27 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: tkd self defense I teach Hapkido at a Korean owned and run TKD Dojang, it is kind of unique in the fact that Master Chung( who owns the Dojang), is affiliated with Chungnam College in Seoul. His instructor and brother in law, GM Lee K.J., is a professor at this college in South Korea and teaches TKD there. Master Chung has a set up where TKD Masters come from Korea and stay with him for months on end and teach TKD in the Dojang. At this moment there are 6 Korean Masters teaching at his Dojang right now. I'll tell you one thing, these guys can kick and punch, I have no doubt that these Masters and many others that I have witnessed at our Dojang can kick at least 80% of all people in the head before they could react,,, in a nutshell, these guys are fast and strong. I have no doubt whatsoever that they can use TKD for self defense with no problem. Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Worried about the street ? Response to Miguel Miguel stated in part: Response: I agreed with the majority of your previous post. However, I respectfully do not follow your comment above. Individuals take martial arts for a variety of reasons, e.g., for self-enhancement to obtaining a myriad of certifications. I think more in terms of self-defense applied to real life situations. I am beyond the years of tournaments and I have a career and family. Hence, my focus is on health, fitness, and self-defense in the streets. When traveling in the subways of Chicago and New York late at night perhaps I was carrying. But, that would be the last resort if my life was in danger. Not everyone feels comfortable carrying a gun and unless your in a jurisdiction which will not prosecute you for carrying a concealed weapon, then you have to use appropriate tools. I admire those point sparring touraments but it is not my cup of tea. So my focus is more on self-defense in the streets and those other places I may be. Cheers, McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:50:12 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Hit Man movie While I fully support "Freedom of Speech" - I do not support "Freedom from Responsibility". I agree that you can write and read what you want - but it appears that advertising is above the concept that some people just may not choose to see a certain type of movie/show. I find it very disappointing that you could be watching a "family show" on TV (Ok, I know there aren't many of them, but play along), and during a commercial break there will be an advertisement for some movie where there's a lot of killing going on, or some sitcom that is laced with sexual overtones, etc. There are times in your life that you are faced with things that you neither support nor would willingly watch/participate in, but you are subjected to them anyways. At these times, I believe those expressing their "Freedoms" should be held responsible. The real question here then becomes *who* is responsible? Is it the author, the director, the ad agency, the local TV station, the TV manufacturer, me for buying the TV? I think it would be very hard to hold any single entity responsible. I don't proclaim to have any answers in this one, but it concerns me that my ability to "choose" what we are exposed to seems more and more limited. Being a responsible adult, I can determine for myself what is right and wrong (at least I hope I can). However, I have a two year old, and another on the way, who may either not have enough experience to know the difference, or has not fully gotten the message at home. The more they are exposed to something, the more 'acceptable' it becomes. I don't want to start any political discussions here, so please don't flame me on politics - but as an example, I am sure it gets real hard to encourage truthfulness and fidelity in our children when we have a high ranking, public official that escaped unscathed after both lying and cheating. Well, that's my $0.05 worth - Hey, can I buy some positive advertising with my 5 cents? Mark Lasich mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: Tom Marker Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:44:19 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Paladin Press (Was Hit Man Movie) Funny this was brought up... I believe that this book was featured in an ABC report by John Stossel last week on Freedom of Speech. In it, I believe they mentioned that the book was actually written by a housewife who learned everything from the movies and TV. Should we ban "The Sopranos" or the "Godfather" series? I think Paladin releases some crazy stuff, but Paladin has also printed a lot of books/videos that are extremely helpful in terms of martial arts that just aren't printed by other publishing houses. I believe the James Keating Drawpoint series was originally released by Paladin Press. Can the material in this tape be used to kill? Sure can. Do they advocate this? No, in fact, it is just the opposite. They go out of their way to make sure you understand the purpose is for saving lives, not taking them and that if you use this the wrong way, you will go to jail. Now I haven't read this book, but I'm sure at some point it says "for informational purposes only." and I doubt it says anywhere "Killing people is fun, and I encourage you to try it someday. Who knows? Maybe you could be a professional." I seriously doubt that Paladin is secretly wishing for a profitable bloodbath, and such talk is just pure hysteria dictated by emotion, not rational thought. If we crack down on Paladin, it would start a really nasty precident in terms of how martial arts knowledge is disseminated. If someone buys Dr. Jay's book "Small Circle Jujitsu", reads about chokes and then uses it in a fight to kill someone (cutting off blood flow to brain via carotid arteries) does that mean Ohara Publications has to pay out the nose because some punk used the knowledge for evil? My point (in a roundabout way) is that where do we draw the line? This book is a piece of crap, perhaps. But we have to apply the same freedoms to it that we would any other text. If we take this one "reasonable" step and ban the book, how do we know the next "reasonable" step won't be to ban videos, or MA books, or firearms training, or even your Dojang. After all, we all know the possible lethality of our techniques. "If it saves the life of just one child..." after all. One day, someone's going to try to sue the estate of Samuel Colt. :( Tom ------------------------------ From: David Reed Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 15:01:55 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Rank and basics This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------3078B80518C3A4A038806EBF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen a post which takes isue with the following quote from an earlier Digest: <> I must say I agree with this on both points. However, I think it would be a helpful discussion to clarify some perspectives. If one considers only the sportive aspects of any martial art, then rank and basics for that matter are immaterial. Performance and winning in tournaments are the only possible criteria. Therefore, if you only look at making good atheletes or perhaps good and polite atheletes, a six year old pseudo-black belt is acceptable. One post made the example that they saw an excellent demonstration of Dance from a very young performer. If your martial arts are like teaching dance, then I guess this is an accurate analogy. I must say that many parents now equate martial arts lessons with any other activity a child might undertake. From what I've seen, it is very often taught in the same way so this is a fair comparison. I do not believe that it is the way our instructors would like to see their hard-won traditions handed down. If you consider the old, traditional criterion, the a six year old advanced rank holder is not only ridiculous but impossible. As well, no one who is not adult could say to have mastered the basics because the basics entail a training intensity inclusive of severe psychological stress unacceptable for minors. It is impossible to replicate the fighting skill and more importantly, the fighting spirit of our teachers unless we train like they did. Self-mastery that enables true fighting ability presupposes self knowledge that comes only with maturity and very hard training, good parenting, and good character. Again, liability and insurance issues have done away with many of the old methods that facilitated this path even for adults. More to the point, I would never equate an excellent, Olympic marksman with a combat sniper. Both are highly skilled and trained. One is not intrinsically better than the other. But, you would not confuse them or believe them interchangeable. The net here is that I see many black belts, fancy uniforms, "Supreme" grandmasters, "tournament" forms, etc., but I see very few Dan members with a sense of humility. If I could impose, I would make two notes and then put on my asbestos. First, "Dan" means to carve a step, roughly speaking. It implies working and attaining a perspective as if you had to build a staircase up a mountain. Technically, I am not A 7th Dan but I am IN the 7th Dan. I have the benefit of a perspective a little further along the trail that my instructor's efforts have brought me to. This is why I have always liked the Japanese appelation of Sensei or 'one who has gone before'. It demonstrates no position because many have gone before and many will come after. Respect is accorded by how you help those coming after and how you respect those who've come before. Second, how many traditional martial artists use their titles or ranks in correspondence or in conversation? Very few in my experience. I believe that is because of a sense of perspective they have that many of us lack. When I think of the character of the Korean people to survive all the problems they have been through the past century, and then I think of people in this country who have had many more benefits and yet claim or use these titles, I must laugh to myself. I have a photo of my instructor breaking two good Korean 4" by 8" bricks, no spacers, with a spear hand. No tricks, just incredible concentration, a body hardened from unrelenting training, and a desire to show what his efforts might achieve. I compare myself to this standard whenever I feel a little too big for my britches. In sum, I do not believe that rank or titles have any meaning unless conveyed by a senior master to a student or when you are old enough that your own students begin to use them in deference to your efforts with them. "Basics" vary widely depending on whether you mean sports, fighting or one of the 'Do' arts. Perhaps, next time we have a discussion around the culture or curricula of the various methods, we could agree to preface it with which perspective is appropriate. I would find this helpful. Thanks for the forbearance, David - --------------3078B80518C3A4A038806EBF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="dreed.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for David Reed Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dreed.vcf" begin:vcard n:Reed;David tel;work:(206)770-2813 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.visioncompass.com org:Consulting Services;Vision Compass version:2.1 email;internet:david_reed@visioncompass.com title:Vice President adr;quoted-printable:;;2101 4th Avenue=0D=0ASuite 2000;Seattle;WA;98121;USA fn:David Reed end:vcard - --------------3078B80518C3A4A038806EBF-- ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 18:06:11 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hit Man Book and movie Scott, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me on this one. But I hope you are not basing all of your opinions on the movie. Have you read Hit Man? Do you know the other side? Check out this article Peter Houston wrote about the deal. (Peter is an author for Paladin and numerous magazines and other sources) http://capital.net/~phuston/HITMAN3.html As Dave pointed out a digest back, the author of the book is a woman. It's not a very good book, and I seriously doubt she knew anything more about being a hit man than anyone else who has watched the movies she probably took the info from. (Bronson's "The Mecanic" for one) And the book was not written telling people to go out and kill. It was more of a tongue in cheek "How to" manual on being a hit man. (Which you could learn from other sources better than this book) At first it was written as a type of novel. (I guess this woman also wrote some of the Executioner books after Don Pendleton quit writing them and they went to ghost writers.) It's been a long time since I read the book, but I do remember it was not that good, not that enlightening. Anyway, here's the problem. IF you start taking away what a publisher can print, where does it stop? There are novel out there that you can learn from, should those authors or publishers be sued if someone copies what is in the book and kills someone? What about movies? I, and some other Paladin authors, agree that a few of the books Paladin has published in the years are questionable. Maybe some of that information is best kept out of some wacos hands. But I still believe in the first amendment and don't want it to get where you can't pubish certain things, etc. Paladin Press has a good section of books and videos on martial arts and self-defense. (getting this back to relevance to the list Ray) However, some of these books and videos show things that can seriously hurt or kill someone. Some of the things that many on this list teach can kill. Sure, if someone comes into my class and says "teach me how to kill someone" I am going to refuse. But what if they join, stay just long enough to learn something in one of the classes to go and use and kill someone? From all appearances, the student seemed like a good person, but then goes and does that. It could happen to any of us. Who is responsible? Again, some of Paladin's books and videos are questionable, but others are very good. And I still think the first amendment should trump other things and the free passing of information should be allowed. I better get back to work, till later - Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 19:40:37 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #524 In a message dated 8/6/00 10:19:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Enjoyed a wonderful seminar with Olympic Taekwondo Team member, Juan Moreno, > yesterday at Dees TKD in Dayton, OH. Mr. Moreno continues to impress with > his ability as an instructor, his competitive outlook, as a decent human > being. > I have had the pleasure of knowing Mr. Moreno since about 1987 and have nothing but praise for him as a person, a martial artist and a competitor. SESilz ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 19:05:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Korea-China, 2000 Allow me to throw in an interesting thought shared with us during our trip to GM Choi's grave in Daegu City. GM Kim Jung Soo, one of GM Choi's original 10 students and operator of one of the two oldest schools in Korea, commented that although GM Choi was the originator of HapKiDo, Gm Ji should be given a lot of credit for the SPREAD of HapKiDo, and that any talk of rivalries was bad for the art. I found that his attitude was VERY refreshing and reminded me of the days when your affiliation was not even mentioned and all "HapKiDo time" was spent on the mat. I was also VERY interested in the list of names of GM Choi's students starting back in the '50's. By the way, in agreement with Masters Booth and Hilland, GM Kim Jung Soo had the biggest wrists I have ever seen on a human (his wrists are larger than the base of the palm of his hand, and his expandable watchband was stretched completely out of shape), and hands that resembled bear paws in strength and thickness. We will have some pictures of the trip on our site in the next week or so.......J. R. West www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 17:56:38 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #527 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.