From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #560 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 20 Aug 2000 Vol 07 : Num 560 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Armchair Experts the_dojang: Re: use of force the_dojang: Re: Keeping Protests Peaceful the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #559 the_dojang: black belts are not gods the_dojang: re: Moye Tongji and 18 weapons (was Sip P'al Gi the_dojang: Kang Duk Won Preservation Society the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 990 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 16:06:16 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Armchair Experts Mark wrote: << There are established ways to protest-march-peaceably assemble etc. >> And as Ghandi and Martin Luther King (among others) slowly rotate in their graves, we wonder why the current crop of "peaceful" protesters can't just slump to the ground or do some other peaceful protest thing? Sally SallyBaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 16:24:52 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: use of force In a message dated 8/20/00 3:02:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << or you armchair use of force experts out there, certain things need to happen before force is used. Officers will ask, tell, command, and then act along a force continuum to make someone who is in violation of established rules/laws comply. >>sliding scale start like a lamb, escalate into lion! ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:33:19 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Keeping Protests Peaceful Someone else has already posted an excellent response to this, but let me add my support to the police for the great job they do, considering the nature of their work and the highly politicized environment they face. Having lived in a country where martial arts police often face down violent demonstrations, I can assure you you might like the results even less. Jesse Tim Bruening wrote: > I was appalled by the violence at the Seattle anti-World Trade Organization > protests last December, and the much smaller violence (mostly emanating > from the police) at the GOP and Democratic Conventions this month. ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:28:42 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #559 In a message dated 8/20/00 12:02:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << - ----WOW! I'll say even you have quite a deal, Illona!! >> Silke, Well, I waited 3 1/2 years to get into this suite ... I was in a smaller one right next door ... paying just a smidge under what I am paying now ... and he knew I wouldn't rent this one if I didn't get a deal. So you could say I am the groundskeeper in a way. I maintain the lot and the lights and live here so no vagrants or bored kids smash the windows and such. It's worth it to me. This is my full time job and I love it. Grounds, karate, and all. Illona ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 16:24:30 PDT Subject: the_dojang: black belts are not gods wrt black belts and protestors, just over a year ago a similar post was submitted: > Subject: the_dojang: Martial Arts Peacekeeping Force In Kosovo > > To end the war in Yugoslavia, I have suggested that Black-Belt Martial > Artists serve as peacekeepers in Kosovo. They would be unarmed, as > Milosevic wants, but be able to defend themselves. What do you think of > this idea? Is it feasible? IMHO, this same person is well intentioned, but hasn't yet realized that black belts can't walk on water or land mines or stop bottles or bullets. You don't learn those skills until you become a GrandMaster. :) But, please no flames. Time to move on... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:41:36 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: re: Moye Tongji and 18 weapons (was Sip P'al Gi Dear Jeremy, You wrote: >> "If the Sip P'pal Gi was extracted form Muye Tonji Tubo, then it would most probably based on the compulsory 18 weapons as in Chinese Military." Keep in mind that the Moye Tongji was written by Master Han Kyo who researched the traditional tribal martial arts (Sa Do Mu Sul)of Korea. So if Sip P'pal Gi was extracted from the Muye Tonji, then it would be based on Korean tribal martail arts more than Chinese military arts. << I am sorry, that is totally incorrect. Han Kyo, who may have been a scholar attached to the Military Training Agency rather than a soldier per se, produced one manual that we know of called 'Muye Chebo' and it is a simple copy of the Chi-hsiao hsin-shu (I have both and can verify this) and was published in 1598 (at the end of the Imjin Waeran (Hideyoshi invasion)). You have to put this in context. Hideyoshi ordered the invasion of Choson in 1592 and the Koreans were completely surprised (this was their strategic mistake because they had plenty of warning) and overwhelmed. The Choson government called upon Ming China to help. The sheer number of the Ming forces forced the Japanese to make a strategic withdrawal. The (perhaps erroneous) conclusion the Choson military made was that their native techniques were useless and that they had to learn the Ming techniques. The Ming however, were unwilling to let the Choson soldiers have the manual. It is unclear whether Han Kyo (or another) learned the Ming techniques or just obtained the book through bribery (the phrases used are ambiguous). The Muye Tobo Tongji was not published until 1790. The Muye Tobo Tongji was compiled by two scholars (Pak Chega, a famous reformer, and his friend Yi Tôkmu, with a soldier(s) demonstrating the techniques. The Muye Chebo, Chi-hsiao hsin-shu, and a later Ming military manual the Mubeichi (not the one McCarthy recently translated I hasten to add) were used for reference. Although much in the Muye Tobo Tongji is new, a significant amount is copied (borrowed if you prefer) from the aforementioned Chinese manuals. I would reference you to my web site but I think it is gone now. Yours, Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:02:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Kang Duk Won Preservation Society Forwarding on for a friend: Kang Duk Won Preservation Society We would like to hear from any members who are currently training in Kang Duk Won or have some linage to the system. We are working on preserving the system and making a contact list for communication world wide. There are no membership fee's. Please contact us at Meteor2000@aol.com Thank you ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 19:17:53 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #560 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.