From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #623 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 28 Sept 2000 Vol 07 : Num 623 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #618 the_dojang: Sour Grapes the_dojang: Re: Fear of Choi? the_dojang: Re: Seoul night moves plus Army clarification the_dojang: GRUNT the_dojang: Mike Inay, RIP the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1150 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:56:05 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #618 In a message dated 9/26/00 10:04:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Juan is a class act; and for those of us at the Olympic Trials, the sight of Juan hugging his child and his wife was priceless. >> I guess it was priceless to see him hugging his child -- the baby isn't due until March 2001 and he just found out she was for sure expecting in August. : ) Sally SallyBaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "K T" Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:14:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: Sour Grapes Seems like the two athletes complaining should go back to their respective schools and re examine their schools tenets. And that's my 2 cents. Noel >> The bronze and silver medallists beaten by Lauren Burns in the debut Olympic taekwondo event claimed last night the Australian only won because of unfair judgements influenced by the enthusiastic home crowd. The 12-times Australian champion took the first-ever Olympic taekwondo gold last night with a resounding 4-2 defeat of Cuba's Urbia Melendez Rodrigueaz in the final of the women's under 49 kilogram division. But not before overcoming her most difficult obstacle of the night, Taiwan's world champ Chi Shu-Ju in a tight match awarded to the 26-year-old Victorian on superiority. "I think it's not fair because in Australia because of the audience and everything she kicked at me and it wasn't strong enough but because the crowd shouted loudly and it was an influence otherwise I would not have lost," Chi told journalists through an interpreter. In taekwondo competition a blow must be with force to allowable parts of the body and must be registered by two of three corner judges for it to count as a point. Melendez Rodrigueaz concurred with Chi's comments saying she thought the corner judges favoured the Australian athletes. She said Hanne Poulsen of Denmark should have won her second semifinal fight against Burns in which the Australian won 1-0, if it were not for the influence of the crowd. "The Australian athlete was favoured a bit and I think referees and judges should be fair and I saw her win points many times," Melendez Rodrigueaz said, also through an interpreter. When asked who should have got the gold, she said: "The medal should have been contested with Chinese Taipei or Denmark - it would have been fair." Burns defended her new title of Olympic gold medallist. "I gave it everything I had and I put all my heart and soul into it and I really feel like I deserve this medal. Taekwondo's a subjective sport," she said. She said the subjective nature of the sport had worked against her in the past. "It is a subjective sport because you've got humans judging that have got to press this button ... they have to see that point. If they don't see it they can't record it," Burns said. Earlier yesterday, Australian under-58kg contestant Paul Lyons lost to Morocco's Younes Sekkat in a referee superiority decision after the two tied on points. During the match he appeared to manage two good kicks that were not registered as points. "There was a couple of scores there I felt I got some points but they didn't count on the board so I was disappointed with that, but that's the way the game is," Lyons said after the fight. << _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:23:10 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Fear of Choi? To the list: I fear that my last post may not have been completely understood. In the clip quoted below I stated "From my vantage point......" I meant that from the view of one who is far removed in time and space from the events leading up to the split in Taekwon-Do that the possibility existed that the WTF/South Korean government were afraid of Choi Hong Hi and the ITF. From this clip the rest of the quoted post was written. I'll restate my original question: why did the WTF/South Korean government allow NBC to post misleading information on its Olympic web site? "Taekwondo is the name of the martial art or "way" developed independently more than 20 centuries ago in Korea." This statement IS NOT true! Olympic TKD is less then 20 years old. The WTF is less then 30 years old. The name Taekwon-do (in all its English spellings) is only about 45 years old. The techniques and patterns/forms are recent creations. Yes, they maybe based on techniques, etc. that were developed over the past several hundred years but they have been developed into their modern forms in the past 50 years. Why can't the WTF just tell the truth and go on about its business? Choi Hong Hi was a force in the creation and spread of Taekwon-do in Korea and around the world. In the mid 1960's he was asked to form the International Taekwon-do Federation by the president of Korea. Soon after, he left South Korea and moved ITF headquarters to Canada. (I can't comment on why he did this. I don't know. Only he does.) Fearing the loss of control over their "national sport" the South Korean government ordered the creation of the World Taekwondo Federation. At the same time Kukkiwon was formed to certify black belts loyal to the WTF. The WTF and ITF both pushed hard for inclusion of TKD in the Olympics. The groups were told by the IOC to form a common organization. When it became apparent that this wasn't going to happen, steps were taken to make sure that TKD would become an Olympic sport. The WTF won the race. Since that time both groups have continued to grow and develop their respective arts. Frankly, I'm tired of the "we said/they said" nature of TKD politics. When North and South Korea entered Olympic stadium together I thought that maybe, just maybe, the my bothers and sisters in TKD might be able to join together again. I realize that we may have to wait for the passing of the old leadership on both sides. It will also require the setting aside of some huge egos. I'm willing to try. Are you? Choi Hong Hi is over 80 years old. He must look back with bitterness on some of the events of the last 50 years and the people involved in them. I know he does not like Olympic taekwondo. It is not his "true Taekwon-do" that he has spent his life developing and spreading around the world. Yes, I am loyal to Choi Hong Hi. I have been lucky enough to speak with him, to eat with him, to train under him and to watch him interact with others. My loyalty does not blind me to the human condition of Gen. Choi (yes, I use the title knowing that it isn't accurate. I could as easily use President Choi, Ambassador Choi or Founder Choi.) He is, after all, only human. As are we all. Does your loyalty blind you to the inaccurate statements like those on the NBC web site? Are our egos so large that we can't put aside our differences for the common good? I apologize to the group for the length of this post. I hope that some of you will read it and think on it. Taekwon Robert Martin > From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com > Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:31:22 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Fear of Choi? > > With regard to this portion of Mr. Robert Martin's post: > > >>...From my vantage point it appears that either the WTF and/or the South > Korean government are so afraid of Choi Hong Hi (and his supporters) that > they will do anything to deny several years of Korean martial arts history > during the 1950's and 1960's...<< > > While in disagreement with his logic, I do consider most of it made from an > admirable perspective of loyalty to hs KwanJangNim. The portion pasted > above, however, reminds me of the same paranoia that I shockingly discovered > in an extensive interview with Mr. Choi some years back (I think close to the > 1988 Olympic Games) in a major martial arts publication. Actually, it was a > dual interview; one of Dr. Un Yong Kim, the other of Mr. Hong Hi Choi, placed > side by side as a feature story on taekwondo's evolution and future. > Anyhow, while Dr. Kim came across as his usual educated and erudite self, > Mr. Choi made a number of outrageously paranoid rants about the many Korean > CIA (KCIA) attempts on his life, and how his assassination has been the > number-one priority of the South Korean Government. He claimed they had > spent something in the neighborhood of $50 Billion trying to kill him and > destroy the ITF. Whatever the amount, it was something absurd; a goodly > chunk of Korea's entire GNP at the time. > Now if any of that were true, when and where were these assassination > attempts? Why no smoking gun? Now this is speculation, but I think if the > KCIA was really on 15-year, top-priority mission to murder Mr. Choi, he would > have met his maker ago. > Just as distressing was the "sour grapes" attitude Mr. Choi also > expressed regarding taekwondo's olympic acceptance. As history reveals, the > ITF, under Mr. Choi, petitioned stridently for the recognition of the > International Olympic Committee (IOC) with the intent of becoming the > International Federation (IF) for taekwondo in the world. When the WTF > received this very recognition in 1980, however, Mr. Choi spun around and > became an outspoken opponent of taekwondo becoming an Olympic Sport, the very > thing he worked throughout the 1970s for. In the aforementioned interview, > Mr. Choi went on the record saying that becoming an Olympic event was the > worst possible future for taekwondo which was not a sport, but a martial art. > How can you have it both ways? > So, what Mr. Choi was effectively saying was: If I'm in charge, and MY > organization gets recognized, let's go to the Olympics. If I don't, I'm > vehemently against it. > While I began my life in taekwondo with great respect for Mr. Hong Hi > Choi, I have come to view him as a bitter and warped autocrat who is > primarily responsible for today's huge divisions in taekwondo. > Lastly, while Mr. Martin is correct that many of the Kwan leaders that > emerged after Japan's 1945 defeat did take some training in Japanese > Karate-Do, many also had prior NeiGongBup, KwonBupBu, TaeKyon and other > Korean-style backgrounds well. > Sincerely, > SESilz ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 03:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Seoul night moves plus Army clarification Alain queried: >Combat= only with those 2nd ID Army pukes in Itawon >>who would come out of the field, get liquored up, and >>start fights. Ken, Hope the Pukes were only those who got drunk and started trouble, and you are not referring to the entire 2nd I.D. (BTW - Dong du chon was a lot worse at times for 2nd I.D. causing trouble, since near Itawon you had 8th Army "pukes" from Youngsan):-)Alain> Response: Of course I was making a sweeping generalization. You must not have read my comment about Navy pukes and plan of the day a few digests back. I would be remiss if I did not state that most of the GI's were well behaved. Only a few rowdy types which unfortunately gave the locals the opportunity to label all GIs. What I thought was more interesting was how some of the guys would come down, either from Yongsan or Dong Du Chon and blow all their money on the Juicy's. Maybe at the end of the night they would get a telephone number. In sum, for the most part I had no difficulties. But, what is up with the haircuts those Army guys get ? McD... P.S. Anyone here familiar with schools in that area, re: Yongsan or Itawon. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Farral, Kim G" Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:42:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: GRUNT Just a side not to the Military Discussions: It was recently explained to me, though I have not yet been able to verify the following yet I have no reason to doubt any of it, where the term Grunt originated...This was told to me by a fellow Squid Reservist who is a former Army Puke Staff Sergeant...He spent his time in Germany and Desert Storm... Anyway...The term Grunt is actually and Acronym...G.R.U.N.T....During WWII Reservists were being enlisted in mass...the need for replacement troops over seas was critical...The Government, upon enlisting the fresh, new reservists, supplied them with whatever gear was available, put them abroad transport ships, and trained them on board ship while on their way to the designated Area of Operation...these reservists were then designated by the government as...Government Reserve Units Not Trained...G. R. U. N. T.... And there you have it! The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 6:34:37 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Mike Inay, RIP I suspect that since most in this forum are not students of the Filipino martial arts that you may not know of Mike Inay. He was the Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima and an early pioneer of Eskrima in the USA. I learned late last night that he has passed away. He died of a heart attack while doing what he loved so very much, teaching Eskrima. At only 56 he should have had many more years to give to his art, yet he accomplised so very much. He was my friend, a great teacher, and a great Eskrimador. He will be missed... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 6:36:31 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #623 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.