From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #643 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 6 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 643 In this issue: the_dojang: Student Retention Re: the_dojang: Student Retention the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #642 the_dojang: Re: Flipping and Falling the_dojang: Re: McD is chillin' the_dojang: Re: TKD in College Station Re: the_dojang: GM H U LEE the_dojang: Student retention / attracting new students..... the_dojang: Re: flip/sky falls the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #642 the_dojang: Re: GM H U Lee the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #642 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #642 the_dojang: Re: We CAN Flip But Don't....? the_dojang: Re: Free Falls the_dojang: Re: Falls the_dojang: Re: Falling the_dojang: Re: McDojangs the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Silke Schulz" Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 08:47:03 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Student Retention ><< If we continue to change our curriculum to suit different expectations do >we have anything? While it is easy to appreciate adapting teaching methods >to cater to students with special needs, no arms, blind etc, Should we put a >greater emphasis on fitness this week to suit Person A's expectations and >more marching drills for B and baton twirling for C? >> Putting out a Student Survey does not automatically mean one puts everything they wanted into action. However, there is also something to be said for showing that you care enough to at least ask. I also asked the students to rate all of the instructors in various areas, including me. This is educational, and can show you where your weaknesses lie. I asked what other things they'd like to see seminars on, and why they joined our Taekwondo program. The curriculum has not changed....though it has been enhanced by things I've learned elsewhere. And to those who get upset because I won't automatically test their kid every two months and think I'm doing it just to suck money from them, well, I say....see ya!!! On the other side of the coin, as school owners and instructors we do need to be somewhat responsive to the needs of our students and our parents, without watering down the curriculum. There is more to their needs than those which are curriculum based, and it is those needs to which we need to respond. Throwing another penny into the pot, Silke Schulz ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:58:51 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Student Retention On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, Robert Martin wrote: > > Student retention is a great concern of our school. We are a 20 year old > school that is associated with a recreation district. We are fairly cheap > but have a limited number of classes. We do pretty good at keeping white > blets to their first test (3 to 6 months). I would guess about 85% that > start. However, overall student retention isn't all that great. Of 25 > students that start, maybe one or two goes all the way to black belt. I'm > not sure if this is a good average over all. > My experience is that 85% retention at the start and 4-8% to black belt is not that bad. My previous experience was in teaching at a University and we had even worse turnover since people came to school for a few years, graduated and then moved on. So it was rare to get people to black belt. But, we had pretty good retention while people were in school. But, even then people's outside commitments and interest change. Even an excellent program will have quite a bit of turnover. I think the question is whether you are passing on something of value to your students while you have them? Are they enjoying and getting positive development out of the classes while they are there? You might consider doing a survey of the students to see what they like/don't like, suggestions for change and such. I did a written survey at one point and it was useful. You will also get people to say things that are totally unworkable, but it's worthwhile getting feedback from them. I think others have pointed out excellent suggestions as well. Having variety in your teaching (even if you are really doing the same things, just adding an extra twist to it) is motivational and fun for students and teacher. Also making sure there are more things you can teach as people advance. If everyone always does exactly the same things it gets boring for all. Applying your "standard techniques" to a new situation can also add variety. Try kicking from the ground, or doing forms blind folded, or doing forms with target mitts. There's really a lot that can be done to both increase people's ability in the basics while at the same time adding variety. I think the other thing is probably to have a multi-faceted martial arts program. Make sure there is something for all: traditional discipline, artistic expression, athleticism, aerobic workout, power workout, flexibility training, competetion, team-building, sport-sparring, self-defense training etcetera. If your program focuses on only one aspect it only appeals to those interested in that narrow range. A more multi-faceted program can be appealing to a wider audience. Personally I still want a tight connection to my martial art traditions and values as well as ensuring people are solid in the fundamentals before moving on. And it is important to keep some things the same so they can get solid in the basics and know more what to expect. So I think there is a balance between being too "out there" and being stagnent. Anyway, interesting posts on this issue! Erik Kluzek, (CGD at NCAR) National Center for Atmospheric Research Boulder CO, (off) (303)497-1326 (fax) (303)497-1324 - --------- Home page and public PGP key--------------- http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/~erik !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:07:33 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #642 In a message dated 10/6/00 10:28:14 AM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << There are a couple students and one instructor who feels that we do not even come close to doing enough sparring. I feel that our time sparring is adequate for our needs. >> Nobody in my school seems to think we do enough sparring, except me! But when we compete, we win. People have to understand that there is more to the martial arts than sparring and that sparring drills do enhance their sparring skills. Gary Pieratt ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:39:01 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Flipping and Falling In a message dated 10/6/00 8:28:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I understand the other poster's reluctance to force people to do flip falls, especially if he/she was dealing with an over 40 crowd. Getting a shoulder separation from just practice is no fun, and I've seen it happen to someone who had been doing falls safely for 10 years. As we get older, we have to take less risks.>> I am sorry ... but I am not going to 'make' someone 40 or older do falls if I don't feel it is beneficial to them. I have a heart transplant student here that I won't be teaching how to flip and fall ... and a woman here with who has numerous hip and knee and foot surgeries that will not be learning this either. Too much chance of serious injuryfor them. The heart transplant student cannot do normal push-ups because of the strain on his chest -- way to painful for him ... so we have given him something else to do that he can do. Flipping and falling is not for everyone ... Illona ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 10:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: McD is chillin' Someone familiar with McD's sophmoric humor stated: Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 16:28:01 EDT Subject: the_dojang: flip falls I think everyone missed the boat on my play on words dealing with better ways to abuse your body. It was a joke that i think you read a little bit too literally. i guess only McD can pass off the sick jokes... So back to you, Ken...this posting stuff harder than I thought.> Response: I have been maxin' and relaxin'...trying to get over the private emails some individuals sent me on my Army and Navy pukes comments. Actually my job has got me going crazy. In addition to logistics I have to do facilities management, space allocation, safety officer, housekeeping supervisor...and put out all sorts of fires. Now you understand why I have a few heavy bags in the basement. On martial arts issues: a. Condolences to Mr. Petrotta. I enjoyed meeting you and understand the meaning of loss of a loved one. b. Master West= I would like to attend your seminar in Maryland. If I can't I plan to make it to your big shindig in February 2001 ? I would like to bring my snot nosed 12 year old to one of your clinics. I am sending Mr. Borucki a few pictures of the 57 and Chevelle for your review. c. I am enjoying the tone and tenor of the posts on this list. d. Alain Burrese= I know you were joking. The gift will be forthcoming in the future. I have not forgotten. e. Officer Snow= ha, ha. I beat that speeding ticket you tried to give me. f. Mr. Beach= when I studied Kuk Sool Won I had trouble doing cartwheels and those spinning flip falls. My wife has back problems and could not do the rolls too well. The instructor took our limitations and worked with us. Not all students have the same strengths or weaknesses.Flexibility in dealing with students ? g. Mr. Steve Seo= thanks for the clarification on Kido Hae. I had the pleasure of meeting your dad in Pusan at a tournament. Mr. Chang introduced me and he permitted me to sit in the VIP section. However, I am not a VIP but as the Army would state I am a DACO=drunk and crazy operative. h. On jokes= I leave with this thought. Your at a Mexican style buffet and you just had the burrito casserole with the hot chili beans and enchaladas. You have a class in 45 minutes. The gas created by the buffet is starting to kick in cause you left your Beano at home. You arrive at the Dojang and your stomach is really growling. You want to duck out but the instructor sees you and calls out to you. Your lucky day, he wants you to do the latest form in front of the class. Everything goes smooth until the last move which involves a drop to the knees with one of the spinning foot moves. Just then your sphincter decides to release the pressure build up and you just pass gas with the most amazing loud noise--also shattering the water cooler. So, do you blame it on another student which would be a breech of etiquette or do you act like nothing happened ? i. I just received a package in the mail forwarded to Ken "The Man from Glad" McD..." I think I know what is in it. Someone from this list has sent it. Great. Will go well with the 7 up. I am sending this out since if you do not hear from me and I have angered someone this could be the work of the Ninja bomber. Will keep you posted. Peace, McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 13:02:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: TKD in College Station > ------------------------------ > > From: "Shaun M. Fortune" > Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 11:31:21 CDT > Subject: the_dojang: Taekwondo in or near College Station, TX > > Hi all. I've been asked to find out if anyone knows of any taekwondo > schools in or near College Station, TX. Please reply on or off the list. > Thank you very much. > call 409-696-5425 for the ATA school in College Station ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:46:33 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: GM H U LEE On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Mitchell's wrote: > Would everyone please take a moment off silence for Grandmaster H U Lee! > The founder of the American Taekwondo Association passed away today. This > is a very big loss to our world, for he was an extraordinary human being! > I did not know Grandmaster Lee, nor am I a member of the ATA. But, I do "know him" from the many fine ATA students that are out there. My, Master -- Grandmaster D.H. Kim of Tucson AZ, also knew him growing up in Korea, so I feel the connection of lineage. I give my heartfelt condolances to those that grieve his death. He will be missed... Erik Kluzek, (CGD at NCAR) National Center for Atmospheric Research Boulder CO, (off) (303)497-1326 (fax) (303)497-1324 - --------- Home page and public PGP key--------------- http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/~erik !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: "aparedes" Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:00:55 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Student retention / attracting new students..... Since we are on the topic of student retention, I'd like to ask all of you who are successful in your schools about how to attract more adults. My kids class is nearly to full capacity.. I would now like to increase the enrolment on my adult classes. I teach Chang moo Kwan TKD out of the YMCA and for some reason I think that people think that every thing that is offered there is only for kids. I would appreciate any and all comments and /or suggestions. Alex Paredes Changmookwan@email.com ICQ#17642186 Yahoo ID# black_belt_3 AOL messenger name: Changmookwan WORLD CHANG MOO KWAN HOME PAGE www.geocities.com/Kyosa-nim ------------------------------ From: Warlockery@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:41:21 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: flip/sky falls <> Even the great Romans watered their wine. ..............................iain... ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:54:42 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #642 In a message dated 10/06/2000 10:28:11 AM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 02:44:47 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #641 In a message dated 10/6/00 12:30:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Pyung Ahn, Naihanchi, >> What are these forms? >> I believe (95% sure)they are Tang So Do forms. I am famillar with them because they are the forms used by The Korean Martial Arts Research Association, based the Bowie, Md., where the bulk of my martial arts training came from. Pyung Ahn (Peaceful turtle -- five forms) are taught at the Green/Brown belt level, While The Naihanchi (Iron Horse -- Three forms) are taught at red belt level. Craig ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 07:43:47 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: GM H U Lee > Would everyone please take a moment off silence for Grandmaster H U Lee! > The founder of the American Taekwondo Association passed away today. This > is a very big loss to our world, for he was an extraordinary human being! > > Thnak you > > Vince MItchell My deepest condolences to the whole ATA family. Since several other Grandmasters who passed away recently, I just feel that a certain era in Taekwondo is just ending - the time of Great Grandmasters (with no offense to the present ones). We shall think if we really used our opportunity well to learn from them as much as possible. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:00:56 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #642 In a message dated 10/06/2000 10:28:11 AM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Recently at our monthly meeting, there was a discussion about whether our school does enough sparring. There are a couple students and one instructor who feels that we do not even come close to doing enough sparring. I feel that our time sparring is adequate for our needs. The discussion became rather heated on the part of that one instructor who acted disrespectfully to me and the group. That meeting was last Thursday and I have not seen him since then. I am wondering if he will be back (or if he even should be). My query to the list is: How do you think I should pursue this? I have been going over and over it in my mind and asked the opinions of our other instructors. Now I'm asking if anyone on the list has some wondeful bit of wisdom that can help me in this matter. There is a vast amount of knowledge on the list and maybe someone has been in a similar situation. On- or off-list replies are welcome. >> May I make a suggestion? Do you have a regular sparing class? If not, why not designate one regular class a week as a sparing class. If that instructor comes back, let him run it. Don't interfer with the class, except when needed. Wait three to six months and see if the class attracts a reasonble amount of students. If the class is well attended, keep it. If it isn't, discuss dropping it. But at least by then, you will have an idea how your students think about sparing. Craig ------------------------------ From: LJSFLEM@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:08:22 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #642 RE: US Cup 10/7/00 CT If anyone has the fax number to submit applications for this tournament there are some hopeful competitors from our school who are interested as well as two visitors from Ecuador arriving tonight. ljsflem@aol.com Tae Kwon, Lorraine on behalf of Master Pascual Pacheco, International Academy of Tae Kwon Do, NJ ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:16:04 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: We CAN Flip But Don't....? At 11:49 AM 10/6/2000 -0400, you wrote: >So You can >remove a Nail from the >coffin. > > > Hal > Whalen I'd like to think so, but it didn't sound that way from the letter. b ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:28:16 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Free Falls At 10:41 AM 10/5/2000 -0400, you wrote: >We call them "Free Falls", but I don't know why....I pay for each one I do! Then you have not been properly taught in how to land.....where are the BASICS today????? b ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:31:56 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Falls At 10:41 AM 10/5/2000 -0400, you wrote: >I may be victim of a slippery slope fallacy mentality here but it just >seems like if you don’t require a skill of all (barring physical >disability) you are watering the wine. > >Brian Just the opposite, Brian.....you are right on target. Just imagine if such sloppiness were taught back in the sixties (well, actually it was in most schools), then these people become teachers, then their students become teachers........I think you are beginning to get my point about the current state of martial arts. Keep fighting for the basics! b ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:28:10 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Falling At 07:42 PM 10/5/2000 -0400, you wrote: >. But on certain techniques done full speed if you don't jump >into the fall the joint is broken. So to practice them either you adjust the >technique a little for safety, do it slower, or the throwee does a flip-fall. First of all you took the piece I was commenting on and attributed it to me.....but if you drop the first paragraph what I said is still true. Your comment above shows another side of the "bad basics" mess we are in today. In Aikido, all throws are taught so that the person can roll out from them UNLESS tori "holds" him in the air midway through the throw, allowing him/her to fall straight down. This is why I always have taught Aikido students judo falls before anything else. And based on what I've seen and heard of the founder of Aikido, he often did this type of jujutsu throw. One cannot learn to throw if one is fearful of falling. Now in other arts, IF the techniques are correctly applied, the fall is simple and clean. I know (I think) what you are talking about....the famed "kote gaeshi" which is taught in numerous martial arts. MOST instructors never learned it properly and teach that the hand be turned outward "beyond" the wrist. This means the person falling must jump over the arm or risk a break or sprain. The proper way to do this technique is to push the hand straight back toward the elbow and TURN THE HIPS.......in this way the person will be taken over the arm very cleanly (it seems like magic the first few times I teach someone the proper way to do it) and land right in front of tori. So again we come back to the BASICS. If your instructor hasn't taught you how to properly fall before all else, and then teaches an incorrect version of a throw one can indeed have a bad fall. I once suffered a concussion when a certain intercontinental judo champion was about to lose, so he countered with an illegal throw which landed me on my head (this is rare and illegal....but it does sometimes happen with someone who's afraid that a loss means a loss of ego). But the only time such throws may be dangerous is in the more rigorous schools of jujitsu type training. And if a person can't fall with ease and grace he/she should simply not train in such an art, but stick to a gentler approach. b ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:30:20 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: McDojangs At 07:42 PM 10/5/2000 -0400, you wrote: >. If they're happy with the McDojang on >the corner, so be it. OK....but don't say they are learning "X" art when they are learning some watered down and prostituted techniques. b ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:07:58 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #643 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.