From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #650 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 9 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 650 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: No docs??? the_dojang: Re: Hapkido/aikido/self-defense in general the_dojang: Flip Falls, 'b', adjusting requirements, aikido Re: the_dojang: re-discovering Taekwondo the_dojang: Re:HapKiDo vs. AiKiDo the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #649 the_dojang: Nagging Pain the_dojang: Re: knee pain the_dojang: Re: Mpeg Videos the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #649 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:00:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: No docs??? > ------------------------------ > > From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com > Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:37:22 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #648 > I don't do > doctors, only natural therapy. > Wuf! Let's hope you don't tear your ACL or end up with a compound fracture! Kerry WTF TKD ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 14:49:52 CDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido/aikido/self-defense in general In reading a couple recent posts on the difference between hapkido and aikido, it reminds me of a quote from an excellent book I recently finished. "The Way To Go" is by Daeshik Kim and Allen Back and in the section on self-defense, he quoted that there were three levels of self-defense: (commence paraphrasing :) First level: Totally destroy the opponent. Next level: Control the opponent so as to cause minimal or no damage. Highest level: End the situation before it even begins. I have always been taught and continue to teach that if you "live your life in harmony with the world" (to put a flowery term on it), people will be less likely to want to do anything to you to begin with. I think that the inner strength and peace, as well as the confidence, from martial arts training shows through even in intermediate practitioners, regardless of the art they study. This in itself may avoid the kind of confrontations that could occur to someone without such training. I am not naive enough to believe that there is NO risk of ever being attacked, but I think we can go a long way as individuals to "live in harmony" and not encourage that type of action against us. The only time I've ever even been CLOSE to using my martial arts was at a younger time in my life when I was NOT living in harmony and it was only once. But I got harmonious pretty fast when that big guy started pushing me around. :) I wouldn't escalate the situation and he got so frustrated, he just left. Martial arts training is about self-defense, absolutely. But it is about a LOT more than that, isn't it? IMHO, Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:44:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Flip Falls, 'b', adjusting requirements, aikido Hoo boy, lots of stuff to comment on... First) 'b' said: > >First of all you took the piece I was commenting on and attributed it to >me.....but if you drop the first paragraph what I said is still true. I guess you couldn't see that that first paragraph had '>>' in front of it. I did NOT attribute that to you. Your response was the one with the single >. Your first sentence was: >The art of falling is the first thing taught in jujutsu and judo schools, >and rolling type falls in Aikido. There is NO danger and no beating up of >the body if a person learns the BASICS of falling to begin with. > And IMO this is crap. DOING is different than KNOWING HOW. You may know it and still screw up. You may be stunned from a previous technique. From your own example, an 'incorrect' version of a throw may land you on your head. There is ALWAYS danger. You simply minimize it with practice. And for air falls there is a definate impact the body must be conditioned to take. On the 'incorrect' crap. There is no such thing as an incorrect attack by my opponent. I'm very familiar with the wrist folded version of kote-gaeshi and prefer it to the outward wrist twist. That doesn't mean I throw away the outward wrist twist, that technique works too, though in a different manner. >From your own words, 'This means the person falling must jump over the arm or risk a break or sprain.' Exactly. The thrown person can not do a BASIC fall to escape the technique if it is done full speed. They must do an ADVANCED fall, or you must adjust the technique for training purposes. Or else you have a lot of hurt students and no one comes back. Second, referring to a McDojang, < OK....but don't say they are learning "X" art when they are learning some watered down and prostituted techniques. b > It's their claim, not mine. If asked I would explain that there're no trademarks on m.a. names; that real HKD is this and such, real TKD is this and such, etc, and show them the real stuff. From what I've heard I would rather Pelligrini not have used 'Hapkido' in what he does. So what? All I can worry about is what I can have some influence on: my own reputation, my own teaching, and my own students. Your postings beg the question. All right, what do you consider the BASICS? Third, adjusting requirements for students) Illona mentioned a woman with multiple hip, knee, foot surguries, another student with a heart transplant that can't do pushups...'Flipping and falling is not for everyone...' Some techniques are not physically possible for some people. David Reed said: >It is impossible to share the 'Do' aspects if everyone essentially has >their own martial art. While this happens naturally after training for 20 or 30 years, it is not the original training intent of the 'Do' curriculum. You make some good points, however I disagree. The 'traditional' curriculum HAS changed in TKD, TSD, HKD, etc over the years. Do aspects do not come from doing this particular technique or that one; they come from training hard in dedicated practice with the proper attitude. Yes, mastery of the art is mastery of self, but there are MANY paths to the same place. >Clearly, there are times when a technique is impossible or very >dangerous. The student must understand that they are not going to learn >the entire curriculum. They are also not going to be able to pass on >the art to another generation. I believe everyone can participate, but >not everyone can master what is needed due to one limitation or another. Agree with this. If they can't do part of the curriculum that is an essential part of the art, they should not get rank. There are many choices in reaction to an attack, but for example if you can't do or teach a decent roundhouse, you shouldn't be a TKD black belt. On the other hand a 720 shouldn't be one of the requirements. Fourth, aikido practicalness) In my experience, it depends entirely on the instructor and how much of a 'granola eater' they are. Most do tend towards an idealized approach to combat, and are not truely after self-defense in their training. On the other hand, the techniques don't have to be done with the big circles and gentle takedowns. Look at Seagal's first movie for instance. 'Above the Law' shows Aikido done in a realistic fashion. I've seen enough 'dojo technique' in Hapkido and Taekwondo schools to say no martial art is immune. It's all in how you train. David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 13:20:44 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: re-discovering Taekwondo > Let me explain. when blocks are taught there is usually a movement as a > preparation to block (we call it framing) before the block is executed. What > I have found is that the frame is a block and the block is actually the > strike, and to a particular target that will generate the proper body > response in your attacker and make your next target opening. which when > applied to the forms exposes the deadliness of Taekwondo. > > It is my belief that the deadly knowledge of the techniques of Taekwondo was > lost when the goal became to make it a worldwide sport. (which was > accomplished) > > What I am saying is the modern Taekwondo is based on techniques of the past > before it was called and reorganized as Taekwondo. My goal is to restore the > root purpose and use of these techniques, which by the way includes various > joint locks in the movements. I submit that this 'lost' knowledge has nothing to do with the sporting aspects of Taekwondo but the divergent path Karate, Tang Soo Do, and Taekwondo have taken from an art of primary influence, Okinawan Te. When the early arts started to be taught to school and college age 'kids' (Te in Ryuku in the late 1800s and Shotokan in Japan in the early 1900s) some of the standup grappling/breaking and vital point knowledge was not taught until one progressed into the mid to higher Dan levels. Thus some of this knowledge was never transfered, especially for those that perhaps only made it to 2nd or 3rd Dan prior to returning to Korea and going on out their own. Therefore I would again submit that these aspects were never really a part of TKD given the above and therefore it has developed into its own art, - -perhaps- even more effective than Okinawan Te. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:20:41 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re:HapKiDo vs. AiKiDo In a message dated 10/9/2000 11:37:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << HapKiDo vs. AiKiDo >> Master West - Thank you for a very good response. Could you comment on one more thing? Could you say if and how your Aikido expereince enhanced your Hapkido? My jujitsu sensei always encouraged his jujitsu black belts to train at least one year at an Aikido dojo. I have a sense that Hapkido could be enhanced for many by some cross training in Aikido. Jose' ------------------------------ From: LJSFLEM@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:01:53 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #649 In a message dated 10/9/00 6:37:59 PM !!!First Boot!!!, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << ole bod isn't for wimps... :) >> A sports orthopaedist referred to this as "patella syndrome". Actually you can feel the knee grinding if you hold your hand over the knee cap. Sort of sounds like it needs to be greased ;-) but is not audible. Makes any sense? Besides years of running it can also be as a result of injury. One of our female students wears a knee brace during workouts. Knee conditions can also be as a result of ankle or hip problems. Bascially, that the foot is the foundation of the body. If the foot/ankle are not working properly it will cause use of muscles that are not generally used for walking, running, jumping, etc. As one muscle stretches, the opposite muscle shrinks. Lorraine, the Chiropractors's sister ------------------------------ From: bkraiger@axa.co.nz Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:05:18 +1200 Subject: the_dojang: Nagging Pain I have had a number of problems similar to this. Even after treatment to an injured area the pain always refused to completely go away. I recently have been seeing a Chiropractor. Most of the problems I had have basically disappeared in a matter of weeks. Just because there is pain in your knee doesn't mean that's where the problem is. The problem could be in your back or even your neck. I used to be sceptical of Chiropractic Care. Not any more! Brett Kraiger New Zealand. ************************* From: "K T" Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 17:05:57 EST Subject: the_dojang: nagging pain Any suggestions for the cause or home remedies will be appreciated. After a number of x-rays and some expert opinion (all to no avail) I find I am left with a nagging pain deep in the right knee. There is apparently no floating bone, spurs, misalignment etc. In short the medicos don't know why the pain occurs. The suggestion is "Don't do what causes the pain." Which is sound advice unless you need to do the exercise to loosen up the rest of your body. Having said that, the right knee hurts when I do a lunge type stretch to stretch the left leg and sometimes there is pain when I jump although this is intermittent. There is no ongoing pain when I walk, run or swim or after a work out. (Apart from the normal aches and pains of a solid work out.) Heat rub helps a little but not to a point where the pain is not noticeable. I've been doing TKD for a year and am presently a green belt. I'm 42 so there's a little wear and tear in the old frame but am also weight for height at 6'2" so I'm not carrying too more than I should. If anyone has suggestions for ways of strengthening the knee or a great suggestion for nullifying the pain it would be appreciated. Thanking the list for listening in advance. Noel ******************** ********************************************************************** Important Note This email (including any attachments) contains information which is confidential and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, distribute or copy this email. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this email. Any views expressed in this email are not necessarily the views of AXA. Thank you. ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:27:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: knee pain hey noel! where is the pain? below the kneecap? on the inside of your leg, outside? above the cap? melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.chajonshim.com ------------------------------ From: Jerry Lynde Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 16:33:20 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Mpeg Videos At 09:15 AM 10/7/2000, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: >From: YMCATKD@aol.com >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 22:33:33 EDT >Subject: the_dojang: Mpeg videos??? > >Hello all, > >I am trying to find different web sites with videos of techniques or forms I >can download. If anyone knows any please either email to list or me >directly. Any styles video would be great. > >Thanks in advance, > >Andy My previous instructor had the Taeguk series and Koryo online here http://members.tripod.com/sabecker/poomse.htm As of this writing, they are still there. I suggest copying them to a local hard drive as they will no doubt vanish at some point in the future. "everything dies" - Type O Negative Happy Training! Jerry Lynde ------------------------------ From: ICyrus8528@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 19:49:50 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #649 Master West: I could not have said it better myself. One of my teachers, Don A. Jacob always says, "you can't fight WW III with WW II weapons. Some practitioners regardless of discipline are lulled into a false sense of security within the context of their own schools. Members of a particular school become comfortable with each other to the point of complacency. Having served for 5 years as Recon Marine and 13 years as a active duty FBI Agent, I can tell you, and you know, that things don't work quite the same way in the streets as it does in the Dojang. For one thing, I find that most martial artists are terribly out of shape, no cardiovascular fitness. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 17:57:11 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #650 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.