From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #652 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 10 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 652 In this issue: the_dojang: Rediscovering TKD the_dojang: re-discovering TKD the_dojang: re-discovering TKD the_dojang: Re: Mpeg videos the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #651 the_dojang: Black trim the_dojang: Marine martial arts the_dojang: Re: The Basics the_dojang: Re: AiKiDo-does it really work the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #651 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 7:43:32 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Rediscovering TKD > I started TKD in 1969 at a very young age and using the block as a strike is > exactly how we were taught back then. Every block was meant to be an > attack. Master Y.J. Chung used to say that you punish your opponent with > your block to the point that he hesitates when he throws a punch or kick > because he knows what is going to happen when he does, and then you finish > him off. That is part of it. But knowing exactly what point(s) on their body to strike with your block and at what angle to strike is the rest of it. I suspect that little of that knowledge became part of TKD. But then what do I know... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "phil" Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:59:02 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: re-discovering TKD >I submit that this 'lost' knowledge has nothing to do with the sporting >aspects of Taekwondo but the divergent path Karate, Tang Soo Do, and >Taekwondo >have taken from an art of primary influence, Okinawan Te. >When the early arts started to be taught to school and college age 'kids' >(Te in Ryuku in the late 1800s and Shotokan in Japan in the early 1900s) >some >of the standup grappling/breaking and vital point knowledge was not taught >until one progressed into the mid to higher Dan levels. Thus some of this >knowledge was never transfered, especially for those that perhaps only made >it to 2nd or 3rd Dan prior to returning to Korea and going on out their own. >Therefore I would again submit that these aspects were never really a part >of TKD given the above and therefore it has developed into its own art, >- -perhaps- even more effective than Okinawan Te. >Ray Terry I couldnt agree with you more and have verified this same historical path. But cant we teach the combat principals from the past and yet still participate in the sport? I think we can. The hard part is identifiying the technique and how it was applied in the past along with the pressure point knowledge that is critical to the technique. Phil ------------------------------ From: "phil" Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:12:43 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: re-discovering TKD From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:46:08 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Rediscovering TKD "Master Y.J. Chung used to say that you punish your opponent with your block to the point that he hesitates when he throws a punch or kick because he knows what is going to happen when he does, and then you finish him off." This sounds like you are refering to the block as still a block but hitting the attacking limb with such force that the opponent doesnt want to use it anymore. Which is fine, but not what I am refering to. With my reference to outside block, the hand doing the block would not strike the arm at all but a more sutable target such as the middle of the neck, to be more specific the target would be LI-18 or SI-16. It is difficult to describe with words as to how you would get to this. But if there is someone out there on this path it will make perfect sense. Phil Peplinski 4th Dan ------------------------------ From: "M R" Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 08:18:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Mpeg videos <> Go to www.combastics.com. The links have lots of pages with videos. Bilang, Yellwboy, and Jubei have the best pages. Jedi Trickz _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: LJSFLEM@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:36:21 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #651 In a message dated 10/10/00 2:14:12 PM !!!First Boot!!!, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << chondroitin/glucosamine >> Jenn, does this stuff really work? Not just a hype? Some folks like me are not able to do ibuprofen, aspirin, naproxen products. Can't even take a junior advil without doubling over. Have an ankle that will never be quite right. A surgeon also made a reminder recently that over use of tylenol type products will cause liver damage. Thanks. Lorraine ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:07:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Black trim >To which one can only ask: > >Where did the "uniform" come from given that (AFAIK, perhaps Carsten can >confirm or deny) neither the Samguk Yusa nor Samguk Yoksa contain a >description of Hwarang uniform and no paintings remain of people dressed >in Hwarang "uniforms" and no graves have been found containing preserved >Hwarang "uniforms"?? > >Andrew Andrew: I can only vouch for what I saw, and THAT was a long, VERY old, white, knee-length tunic trimmed in black and hanging in a museum along with other relics from the Silla period. The black trim on present-day Korean style uniforms came from somewhere, and this particular exhibit matches exactly with what my 1st instructor told me. I will look through the books that were purchased at these sites to see if there is a picture available, since photography was NOT allowed in the museums........JRWEST www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:42:18 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Marine martial arts Not sure if you noticed or not, but in the Monday (9 October) issue of the Wall Street Journal there was a piece about the 'new' martial art the US Marines are learning. It is taught by an Aikido 5th Dan and psychologist that also runs a dojo 'for enlightenment seekers in Marin county, California'. Lord save us... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:45:24 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The Basics First statement: > The truth is that >how can anyone move onto the more advanced skills until they have >accomplished the basic's? Second statement: > On the one hand I will say without the basic's one cannot go forward Then.....(highlights mine) > I just feel that to many of the younger Instructors on >this list as well as others have devoted to much to be looked down on by some >archaic dinosaur, WHO REFUSE TO CHANGE. change the basics? CHANGE THE BASICS? I guess we agree on the recent history of the martial arts in the US. (your words, not mine) b ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:42:57 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: AiKiDo-does it really work This was sent to me privately and I was given permission to post it here. It is an informative post re Aikido. I have received other private responses from which I have learned a lot, but have not been given liberty to post them. Jose' - ----------------- Is it effective: Here is a couple of links at a popular Aikido site that addresses just this question. They list instances where Aikido has both worked and not worked. http://www.aikidofaq.com//stories/real_life.html http://www.aikidofaq.com//stories/real_life2.html Secondly, you list many things areas that you have difficulty with in Aikido, yet the lines of what is being discussed become blured and difficult to address specifically. Please let me insert here a quick discussion that will help define some areas so that we can discuss the issues as you see them. To be honest, there are multiple errors when it comes to people understanding Aikido, both from Aikidoka and non-Aikidoka. Because of many factors, but primarily the 'Do' of Aikido, it is easy for Aikido to 'be' many different things. I find that it is easiest to break Aikido (and most 'Do' arts for that matter) into three areas. Philosophy, Strategy, and Techniques. Let's start with the easiest first: Techniques. Loosely speaking, Techniques are the conglomeration of punches, kicks, grapples, joint-locks, Weapons subsets, nerve strikes, etc. that comprise an art. As a general rule, most arts are drawn from the same pool of techniques but typically include the most basic set of techniques from most or all of these "areas." That being said, we can exit "general rules" and get into more specifics in which we can say that a particular art may include more sets or variations of one class of techniques than others. Generally speaking, Aikido contains primarily joint-locks and throws, but also includes punches and may include kicks, gapples, ground-work, and weapons subsets depending upon the lineage and the tastes of the instructor. (note: we are not discussing how these techniques are used or in response to what, that's part of Strategy) Next there is the aspect of Strategy: Perhaps the most difficult of the three to determine in specifics about any given art, Strategy describes the overall concept of how the set of techniques of an art are applied to combat or physical confrontations. Basically, the Strategy of an art prepares the practitioner to respond in certain ways with a give set of techniques to various attacks. One of the most famous and easily understood Martial Arts Strategies comes from Brazilian JuJitsu. Basically stated, BJJ's Strategy says: "All, or most, fights are comprised of only two combatants, and end up with both combatants 'wresting' on the ground rather than standing, thus, to be most effective, the greatest emphasis in training should be on 'groundwork'." Other arts have Strategies that are based on or include "angles of attack", etc. Some arts have the simplest of all Strategies, which is 'the best defense is a good offense', or stated another way, 'do as much damage as possible and keep doing damage until the opponent is no longer a threat'. In Aikido, the basic Strategy includes concepts of Evading, Controlling incoming attacks and energy, and 'Off-balancing' the aggressor. Thus the set of Techniques previously discussed may be viewed through the filter of Aikido's Strategy. If, for instance, a given style of Aikido includes punches and kicks, then what would be the Strategic purpose of said punches and kicks? Typically, the Strategic purpose of these punches and kicks are to create the "Off-ballance' in the opponent which can then be taken advantage of. Any actual damage inflicted by said punch or kick is ancillary, a "bonus" if you will. Yoshinkan Aikido is a good example the Aikido Strategy using these sort of Techniques. Much of the "Art X is superior to Art Y" wars seen are in truth based in differing Strategies which proponents of Art X believe to be a superior Strategy, but lacking the framework of Techniques, Strategy, and Philosophy, they can not articulate what specifically makes Art X superior in their oppinion. Finally, let's briefly examine Philosophy: Not all arts contain the element of Philosophy. As is discussed in the rec.martial-arts FAQ, this is primarily the difference between the 'Do' and the "Jutsu" Japanese arts. In "Jutsu" Japanese arts, there is no accompanying Philosophy which offers a guide to practitioners in all aspects of life, including conflict resolution (combat). Most Martial Arts Philosophies, aim to build character, morality, and humanity in the practitioner and typically include theories on armed pacifism and responsibility. The application of an arts Philosophy to the practitioner's life is highly subjective and, in Aikido, tends to be deeply intertwined with how and when Strategy and Techniques are applied. In basic terms, the Philosophy of Aikido is that of returning "harmony" to disharmonious or chaotic situations. Thus, it can be said that a person who mediates an argument is "doing Aikido" despite the fact that the person has not implemented any Techniques, much less used Techniques in an Aikido Strategy (referred to by Aikidoka as 'Aiki'). This is one of the primary points of confusion and contention between both Aikidoka and non-Aikidoka. For instance, it has been said of various practitioners using Aikido Strategy and Techniques that "he wasn't doing Aikido" simply because the observer felt that said practitioner was being too aggressive or violent, he wasn't "attempting to return harmony" to the chaotic situation. Thus, and Aikidoka who "picks a fight" isn't using Aikido. If you can see you're way past the apparent contradiction, then you understand a finer point of Aikido. Many practitioners of other arts find fault with the Aikido Philosophy, especially those of arts who's Strategy is diametrically opposed to the Aikido Philosophy, such as the "do as much damage as possible" Strategies. This is simply another point of confusion that is easily understood under the Techniques, Strategy, Philosophy framework, even if not resolved. But without this sort of framework, they and the Aikidoka are left to arguing in never ending circles about effectiveness, etc. and are usually forced to end with "Aikido Sucks!" and "You know nothing!", which is wholly unsatisfactory to both parties. While I don't expect this sort of framework to solve the many "Aikido Sucks/No It Doesn't" threads, it will perhaps give participants a better idea of where they disagree and meaningful conversations can then begin. Peace favor your sword, Kirk Lawson "I have little patience with people who take the Bill of Rights for granted. The Bill of Rights, contained in the first ten amendments to the Constitution, is every American's guarantee of freedom." -President Harry S. Truman ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:40:35 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #651 Hey Mac, I was being a wise Ass. I didn't think that you would think I was serious. I get a kick out of your writting style and truly enjoy your wit. To hell with the ones who can't get past their limited minds. Take care, I look forward to reading more adventures in Solue, ( crap I can't spell today) and this computer don't speak Korean. Made in China go figure. Dan ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:24:29 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #652 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.