From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #660 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 13 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 660 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Karate Music the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #659 the_dojang: Re: Music the_dojang: Re: b and the basics the_dojang: Aikido in Military (an ending) the_dojang: Re:WTF front stance the_dojang: Re: Request for "karate music" the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #657 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #659 the_dojang: RE: V7 #658/Bruce the_dojang: Re: What's It All About? the_dojang: RE: V7 #659 the_dojang: Re: Professor B=What High School the_dojang: Aikido in the Military thing the_dojang: Re: Karate music the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1250 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Franich" Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:58:44 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Karate Music You may not think of this as karate music, but our team won the WTSDA world championship with a routine choreagraphed to Earth, Wind and Fire's "Fantasy". Or you could try Michael Flatley's "Lord of the Dance" CD for plenty of high energy music. Tang Soo! John Franich ------------------------------ From: "Joel S. Weissler" Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:42:24 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #659 MUSIC -- There is a great piece by Karl Anthony (he has a website) entitled warriors of the Heart (I don't remember which of his albums it is on) great lyric, good beat, good pace changes. AKIDO - With all the Akido messages, I wanted to put a question to the list. It is my understanding that Takeda style aki jujitsu from which hapkido and akido descend was originally derived from Korean practices. Has anyone else run into this claim ? Anyone have references on the subject ? ------------------------------ From: Kim Helen Jones Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:03:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Music > From: "Debbie Eidelman" > Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:31:00 -0400 > Subject: the_dojang: Request for "karate music." > > Hello all! I'm mostly a lurker who really enjoys reading this list. I'm > testing for my brown belt in Songahm > Taekwondo next week. I'm doing a slide show with music for our annual > picture slide show, and I need music > recommendations (7-8, as many as you can). I've already got Mariah Carey's > Hero and Rocky's Theme and > Eye of the Tiger (I like to change moods). I need some more high-energy > music, lots of it. Popular songs that > everybody seems to know ala Eye of the Tiger preferred! I'd really > appreciate any help. > > Taekwon, > Debbie :) It takes a while for me to get back to replying, but Mortal Kombat is a bit played out. The idea about computer game songs is very good--Half-life has some nice ambient beats, as does Rainbow 6. You might want to look into some MP3s from Napster, like remixes of songs from Street Fighter II, Ryu's Theme. Photek's "Ni Ten Ichi Ryu" is sweet to just unwind to. Euro-techno is good (Rammstein, BTW, was a very good suggestion!)...I recommend La Bouche and Everything but the Girl (the accoustic version of "Missing" is pretty good). If you've heard of DDR (Dance Dance Revolution - very popular in Asia; Korean version is called Pump) and have played it, you could DL tracks from Papaya ("Hero" is pretty good) or Smile.dk ("Butterfly" has a very nice Asian touch to it - Smile.dk is actually a j-pop group). NIN's "We're in This Together Now" is an excellent selection; the instrumentals off The Fragile are pretty good, too. Some Madonna ("Nothing Really Matters" or "Sky Fits Heaven") from Ray of Light *could* be used...I doubt there's any Stabbing Westward fans, but I'm kind of particular to "Everything I Touch" from Darkest Days...and the Spawn soundtrack had some good tracks. Just 22 won (1100 won to the US$1). - -- Kim Jones *joneskh@purdue.edu* Purdue University, Freshman Engineering http://icdweb.cc.purdue.edu/~joneskh ICQ: 52828008 AIM: Adidas Chocobo ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:46:11 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: b and the basics While b has a way of putting things that are off putting, and though I wish he would elaborate more on some of his comments, I think that he has a very good point about the basics. I wonder, though, if it isn't a matter of culture. I think that Asian cultures are much more focused on basics and detail (consider the Japanese Tea Ceremony) while Americans are impatient and want to move beyond perfection of the simple and basic and just put it together and fight. I spoke to an American Karateka who trained in Japan several years. He said for the first two years, the Japanese were rigid and concentrated on perfection of simple basic things, like stance or down block with chambering exactly right. The Americans were looser and more impulsive and for the first two years the Americans tended to beat the Japanese easily in sparing. But then at about the two year mark something switched and the Americans couldn't touch the Japanese. I don't know if this is a true story, but it makes a point about the two cultures. Another way of looking at this is for the Asian martial artist often times the point to the practice is the perfection of the individual technique, that's the path to enlightenment as it were, where as Americans are much more practical and care more about the result, such as wining the fight, which may lead to an impatience with spending years on perfecting a basic and individual technique and are impatient to put it all together and into practical use. I trained with a Shotokan instructor who trained under Okazaki sensie in Phily, He said for the first year of his training they had a rope the length of their shoulders tied between their ankles. They were not allowed to use anything but hand techniques. I don't think that most Americans train with that level of attention to developing a perfect foundation. In American Taekwondo we seem to have a different philosophy. We have white belts doing spinning (huricane) round kicks or jump spinning crescents. The idea is that they are given a lot at once and they perfect it all as they progress, rather than being taught certain things first and then more advanced things later only after having perfected the first level. It wasn't always like this. My Korean Taekwondo Master would get very upset if you were a yellow belt working on a yellow belt form and he caught you working on a green belt form. He would have white belts practice a basic punch over a thousand times before moving to the next technique, and you would get in trouble with him if you were seen working on a more advanced technique. These are different philosophies, though its not clear if one is right and another is wrong. My current Taekwondo instructor recently completed the instructor certification course at the Kukiwon in Korea, and he found that there was an enormous focus there on perfection of basics such as the front stance, and a de-emphasis on more advanced. flashy techniques or on the sport aspects. Maybe this supports my argument that it is a mater of culture. (they have also changed the front stance quite a bit - much more narrow - about a fist in width- and shorter - back foot facing slightly out at an angle - front knee completely over the toes - and a stance that almost propels you forward a bit). Maybe this supports my argument that it is a mater of culture. At any rate, I feel strongly that my training has suffered from a lack of attention to and developing the basics. But there isnt anything I can do about it now, I just try and enjoy my martial arts training as much as I can and accept the limitations of my training and culture. Jose' ------------------------------ From: Daremo and Kitsune Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:53:58 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Aikido in Military (an ending) >From: Rob "Young Eun" Frankovich ><think Aikido has an advantage for military use since it controls the >opponenet/attacker rather than strike them and let them fall/stumble away. >Granted its a bit simplified but basically true. Aikido philosophy may not >come into play as deeply if you're a warrior/soldier than if you're a >CEO.>> > >Sorry Rob, I wasn't sure how to make that toung-in-cheek emoticon > :-p >You may have taken me seriously. But while we are on the subject, >maybe the military should teach that kick-butt style stuff that I see >Chuck Norris doing on his TV show - called "Tang Sue Doe" or >something like that - yea! that's the ticket - they should be taught >Tang Sue Doe!! Heck, Chuck seldom draws his gun when confronting >the bad guys, he just uses that Tang Sue Doe and saves the bullets! :-) > >BTW, did you ever train in TaeKwonDo in '76 in Pasadena Texas? There >were some "Frankovich" brothers that were training at my dojang at the time >and I wasn't sure if you might be one of them. > >McH... McH... Since I came in in the middle of the thread, I missed the "tongue-in-cheek" stuff. Please don't worry about my response. It wasn't a flame back, just my thoughts on it. I'm of this opinion due to law enforcement education and 14 years of security work. I started Aikido because I didn't feel that Taekwondo would truly let me be a "peace officer" if I had to use any force. It might be a moot point but Aikido looks a lot better to by-standers (read "potential witnesses") than Taekwondo. I do like the idea of getting Chuck Norris out there though. Remember he was part of Delta Force! No, I'm not one of the guys you saw. I didn't get started in TKD until 1980 and that was up in Hibbing, Minnesota (about 1.5 hours drive North of Duluth or 4 hours North of the Twin Cities). They could be relatives for all I know. If you remember names let me know. Robert Frankovich aka Young Eun in TKD and Hideo in Aikido "There's more to balance than not falling over." Michael Angier ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:51:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re:WTF front stance Given that we are talking about basics, my TKD instructor recently completed the instructor cert course at the Kukiwon. The front stance has changed quite a bit from the old days. It is a very narrow stance, about a fist in width, a bit shorter, the back foot is angled slightly out at a very slight angle, front knee completely over the toes so you cannot see them, and the stance almost seems to propel you forward. Has anyone else heard of this, and what do you think of it? Jose' ------------------------------ From: BK4Leg@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:18:17 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Request for "karate music" coming out of lurk mode - Recognize that even for high energy music, there are different types of high energy; light vs. heavy, for one. I tried to pick out some that might make you want to smash bricks . Rock & Blues : - ------------------ - - Santana - Jingo; Soul Sacrifice (and there's other latin music that just sizzles with energy) - - George Thorogood - Bad to the Bone; Who do you Love (also done by others). [The "Bo Diddly" riff on the latter can also be found in many other songs ] - - Rolling Stones - Get off my Cloud Wilson Pickett - Mustang Sally (feel it snapping and popping) John Cougar Mellancamp - Hurts so Good Country - --------- Travis Tritt - TROUBLE [but there's *got* to be lots more in this genre] Classical - ------------ You might find collections of several, often called names like "Power classics" or " Extreme Classics", including pieces like : 2001 theme (R. Strauss - Thus Spake Zarathustra) Wagner - Ride of the Valkyries Tchaikovsky - 1812 Overture - esp the Finale, with those bells and cannon Rossini - William Tell overture (the Lone Ranger theme) Beethoven - 5th Symphony (opening) J.S. Bach - Toccata and Fugue in D minor (opening) Dvorak - New World Symphony (opening) Grieg - Piano concerto in A minor (opening) If nothing else, this should trigger other people's ideas and opinions for lots more Bernie out of training many years, but still in my spirit a student of Dr. Jung Hwan Park, going all the way back to the original place in Flushing NY ------------------------------ From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 00:15:06 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #657 In a message dated 10/12/00 10:16:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I was taught to strike the attacking limb with such force, as to break the arm or leg. Right.... maybe the arm, if you know what you are doing. But, breaking the leg with down block, using the smallest bone in the arm. Sorry, odds are you are the one that is injured. As far as knowing what points to hit and how the body will react to a given strike.....that coincidently puts your attacker in position for the next technique in the form, well thats were the re-discovering part come in. If there is anyone on this same path or knows what I'm talking about, please e-mail. Thanks Phil >> If you want to break a leg use a knife hand block to the side of the shin. It will break just fine. Down-ward block with the forearm is to stop the kick. John Murphy A-3-756 ------------------------------ From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 00:28:28 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #659 I would like to ask a simple qustion. What is Songham Taekwondo? John Murphy A-3-756 Hello all! I'm mostly a lurker who really enjoys reading this list. I'm >testing for my brown belt in Songahm >Taekwondo next week. I'm doing a slide show with music for our annual >picture slide show, and I need music >recommendations (7-8, as many as you can). I've already got Mariah Carey's >Hero and Rocky's Theme and >Eye of the Tiger (I like to change moods). I need some more high-energy >music, lots of it. Popular songs that >everybody seems to know ala Eye of the Tiger preferred! I'd really >appreciate any help. > >Taekwon, >Debbie :) ------------------------------ From: Smith Gordon SSgt 752MUNSS/SFO Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:14:41 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: RE: V7 #658/Bruce Mr. Sims, First I have to say, please do not mention Van Damme and Segal in the same paragraph! But seriously...I hope you realize that my response was in defense of the effectiveness of Aikido and my personal search for the same. By know means do I believe that Mr. Segal is the answer to all of my martial arts prayer's. I too have much, much respect for outstanding martial artists like "Judo Gene" LaBell. I have the enlarged picture of him on the cover of Black Belt magazine in the 60's. While living in Japan I was able to see very old footage of him in action in Japan. When I talk to people about "Judo Gene" I have to say, "You remember the taxi driver who pulled a gun on Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker in the movie (Rush Hour)." Then they say, "Oh yeah!" I strongly believe in the safety of a training partner, if you hurt your partner you won't have anyone to train with, and if you look at the footage of Segal Sensei in action you will see that his "Uke" is a master in the art of falling. I know I may be a little more "rough around the edge's" than some, but I beleive in enlightenment through action... A monk asked: "Master, how do you put enlightenment into action? How do you pratice in everyday life?" The master replied: "By eating and sleeping." The monk said: "But Master, everybody eats and everybody sleeps." The Master replied: "But not everybody eats when they eat, and not everybody sleeps when they sleep." Your's in the arts...Han SunBiNim, Gordon2-sends... 1st Dan, Han Mu Do ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 00:02:06 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: What's It All About? At 10:37 AM 10/12/2000 -0400, you wrote: >. When called on to expand his meetings and >knowledge this results in a non-response. This non-response then elicits >further inquiries on the Professor's background. > >I take no position but feel that people are entitled to voice their >positions. They should also attempt to articulate an appropriate answer >to a legitimate inquiry--time permitting. > >That is the quintessential issue on this matter. No negative comments >directed to you, Professor, if you are reading this. > >McD... And none taken, old friend. You should remember way back when I began contributing to the rec.martial-arts group, then we moved into these better lists with a generally higher grade of contributor. Since I believe that in very many (not all, but close) cases the martial arts have devolved since the Ed Parker tournament in 1964, I feel that ranks, belts, titles, even so-called arts made up by people totally unqualified are meaningless. So by my own measure if I go through my ranks and titles they would be meaningless today. Also, I've always wanted people to THINK.....not about me, but about their arts and practice. Maybe I'm just a 15 year old kid, maybe not. The point is not who I am, but whether what I say has a grain of truth in it and leads people to think. I loved Mr. Terry's comment about seeing how techniques from some arts suddenly become part of another art as if it were that way from the beginning. And I realize that it probably hurts people to hear that what they have learned is not classical or traditional. But the fact remains that people who never learned the basics in their rush for higher colored belts (another bugaboo of mine) have taught others who have taught others........well, the results should be obvious. And what about the guy who was given an 8th degree by two others who weren't even ranked in the art they "conferred" his rank upon him.........what are HIS students learning? The point is and always has been it IS possible to go back and study - REALLY study - the basics. Once you have learned the basics of whatever art (shodan)...then you should have enough common sense to see which basics are sloppy and unhelpful and which can be more useful.........then by working on those until they become absolutely second nature you will begin to find the real "secrets" of the arts. Just as looking at someone's belt color and making assumptions about the person is ridiculous, it's just as ridiculous to look at who I am. Look at the information and evaluate it......which can only be done after you have been in the arts for some time.....then you will begin to see whether there is a ring of truth in what I write. Concentrate on the message rather then the messenger and you will be headed toward what has eluded you because of the way martial arts have gone the past several decades. b ------------------------------ From: Smith Gordon SSgt 752MUNSS/SFO Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:19:20 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: RE: V7 #659 I agree with "Dwight" that there are other programs that would be easier for the "troops" to apply in a shorter period. Krav Maga (Israeli Self-Defense Art) was designed for the specific purpose of training combat troop's the most effective self-defense that they learn to apply in shortest possible time. I own the complete Krav Maga video training set and can say from my own personal experience that their training method and techniques are very easy to learn and apply in a short period of time. Me and some of the guy's from the Dojang get together and cross-train martial arts. It is stressed by the video instructor's that Krav Maga and it's principles work very well when mixed along with other martial arts. I am the Non-Commissioned Officer In-Charge of Security Forces Training here at Volkel AB, The Netherlands and I have incorporated Krav Maga into a local Physical Apprehension and Restraint/Self-Defense class I created for my guy's, which includes techniques from Han Mu Do, Shodokan Karate, Ju Jutsu, Aikido, and Kung Fu...I had to do something because the Air Force has absolutely nothing in the way of self-defense for those of us in the Security Forces. Krav Maga has been taking the civilian law enforcement world by storm, maybe our military leader's should take a closer look at it and combine it with a good stand-up grappling art like Han Mu Do or Hap Ki Do and a ground grappling art like Ju Jutsu or Sambo? Or just adopt the SCARS system? Just a thought...Han SunBiNim, Gordon2-sends... ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 04:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Professor B=What High School Professor B: What high school did you go to ? I went to P.S. 64 in Queens, then 2 years at John Adams in Ozone Park, followed by 2 years at Paramus High School, New Jersey where my basketball team went 20-1. I was listed in the year book under Kenneth R. McDonough, One quote out of the year book: "Rating Rebounder...Tiger...mind and will of his own..." At that time no one knew what martial arts were. The only thing close was the wrestling team consisting primarily of early developed Italian Kids (and a few other Europeans)who also played on the Football Team. They were also the "Greasers" who had the fast cars and took out the fast girls. So, what high school did you attend and what did it say in your year book ? He, He, He. McD... - --- William Upton-Knittle wrote: > At 07:26 PM 10/11/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >If I have come off sounding as though aikido the art itself sucks, then I > >am not being clear and can only bow and apologize to all and sundry. I > >actually find what I have been able to own of the aikido philosophical > >stance admirable and I try and exemplify it, > > The basis of this continuing (for the last half-century) discussion is the > total uniqueness of Aikido as compared with other martial arts. It seems > "out of place" to many people......yet it fascinates them. > > I recall when I was ditching "physical ed" (I can't bounce a basketball and > hate baseball) in high school, a large group of us would go across the > street to the park. The school football players could never figure out how > I would "randori" with six or seven of them and never get caught......or > let three or four hold me anyway they wanted and wrap their arms up and > toss them away. > > Yes, the school "tough guys" were interested in learning karate and > jujutsu-type stuff.......but the vast majority wanted to see and "feel" > more Aikido and try to figure it out. I don't know how many times my arms > > were carefully studied in an effort to figure out how it was two big > football monsters could not bend them. > > This is the appeal of Aikido to all of us I think.....it's just different > > enough to make anyone involved with martial arts take a second and third > look....and still wonder how all this fits in to the martial arts. > > b _________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:24:56 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Aikido in the Military thing A last thought about the Aikido in the Military thing. I really don't think it matters what martial art is actually taught, they all have benefits/strengths/weaknesses, as long as it is effective. You still have to pick the most effective technique for the circumstances, and adapt to whatever the threat is at the moment with the best possible solution. That could be to retreat, use a firearm, non-lethal technique, or a lethal one. A quote I love, that applies not only to life, business, and I believe even in combat, is this one: "It's not the strongest of the species that survives, not the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change." Charles Darwin, The Origin of the Species Mac ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:57:48 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Karate music Bonnie Tyler`s "Holding Out For A Hero" from the movie "Footloose" was always my prsonal favourite... We also use a techno remix of "Phantom in the Opera" done by Harajuku. I bought it in an used CDs shop couple of years ago and never saw anywhere else, but it is just great - especially for self defense demo. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 7:34:55 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #660 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.