From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #669 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 16 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 669 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Stances... the_dojang: Front stance the_dojang: ji han jae the_dojang: Ji and Lee the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #667 the_dojang: Re: slippery shoes the_dojang: Re: Speaking of injuries... the_dojang: GM Choi, etc. the_dojang: Re: karate music the_dojang: Regarding non slip shoes Re: the_dojang: ji han jae the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1250 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J Thomas Howard Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:57:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Stances... I should mention first that the following is a combination of my opinion and what I was taught explicitly. As such, if I occasionally lapse into phrasing things along the lines of "this is how it _is_," please understand what I mean is "...according to what I've been taught, and how I understand it." That being said, a couple of comments that "b" has made recently stuck in my mind, and brought me to comment. "b" (William Upton-Knittle ) wrote: >Sorry....this is the stance upon which all others are based. Get into a >horse stance (assuming you've been properly taught it's basics. If you >turn both feet 45 degrees in the same direction you will be in a perfect >front stance; if you turn one foot 90 degrees you will be in a perfect >back stance..............etc. This is one of the basics. Originally, all >students were made to stand in this stance until one (sometimes 2) >dropped out. After all, when done correctly with toes pointed forward >knees properly bent in and then bowed out and the butt kept in and under >a lot of energy is used and one can tire quickly. When you learn this >basic stance as the first thing when you begin your studies.....and you >are kept at that for several weeks, believe me, you will NEVER have to >give a thought as to how to get into it (or those based on it) when >needed. Someone has already commented on the fact that this is only true if you add the weight shift into the change in foot direction, which I'll comment more about later. Since the phrasing "perfect front stance" and so on was used, it seems pretty much as if their is no weight shift and the weight balance of 50/50 is kept. He also wrote: >However, the feet should be no more or less than shoulder width. This >way, if you are kicked in the groin you can simply fold your thighs >together to protect your testicles....any wider and you might not have >the ability to do this...and also it makes moving forward a tad more >clumsy. I had to add this one because my initial reaction was "If I'm just sitting there in front stance, I deserve to be kicked in the groin." The "shoulder width" part is open to interpretation depending on the style, from what I've seen. It also HIGHLY depends on the body type of the practitioner. +Approximately+ shoulder width makes sense, but "exactly" depends on the practitioner. Anyway, reacting from the top: These posts were interesting to read as they contradict both literally and conceptually what I know about stances. Apparently we form stances differently, but more importantly, we certainly use them differently. First, literal differences: For us, the horse stance was weight centered, 50% of mass balanced on each leg. Our front stance (both feet pointing forwards) has 70% of weight on the front leg, 30% on the back. Our back stance has 60% of our weight on the back leg, 40% on the front. So for the way our stances are formed, to say "they all are based on the horse stance" isn't true---or at least it is only as true as "all stances are based on the back stance" in that all of those stances use 2 legs, balance all your weight in some proportion, and can transition from one stance to another. Which brings up an interesting point--"b" didn't necessarily say this explicitly, but are the stances he described them all positions with weight equally on both legs? If so, doesn't that negate most of the usefulness and utility of the stances? Thus, my second point, which seem to be the LARGE difference conceptually between when has been described here and what I was taught. The way some of the stances have been described (equal weight, only difference being foot placememnt and hip orientation) and mentioned in use (in general, statically) contradicts just about everything I know about why stances are useful, and why we train with them. The way I understand it, 2 things are all-important conceptually when training and using stances: 1) Stances are dynamic in use 2) Stance practice exists to teach people how to utilize body weight effectively when performing techniques. Taking #2 first: Each different type of stance shows you how to move your body with balance and speed while effectively and efficiently using your body mass to add to your technique. Take a simple reverse punch: start in a back stance, 60% of your weight on your back leg, hands up. Step forwards and outwards into a front stance while punching with your back hand. What gives the punch such power? Most poeple will say hip rotation, when turning from a back stance into a front stance---and that is true. But JUST as important is the fact that as the hip rotates and the front knee bends into stance, the body's mass changes position forwards as it rotates--the back stance has more weight on the back leg, the front stance more on the front. (Obviously.) The transition from back to front puts the body's mass behind the punch, adding to its power in an efficient and controlled fashion in ADDITION to the hip rotation. Stances teach you effective ways to efficiently use your body mass. If you are standing in a neutral position and someone grabs your wrist, stepping back (with that same side) into a back stance will move the opponent off balance---if you use that movement corectly. Stepping back and then trying to pull the attacker is non-helpful---but simply bringing them with you as your weight drops uses your body's mass to pull the attacker off balance without having to use muscular force. Simply moving into the stance does all the work---gravity does it, not muscle. These are just two basic, obvious examples of something that is one of the basic underpinnings of an art. In arts such as Hapkido, the front, back, and horse stances aren't positions you stand in, or fight from---they are teaching aids to show practitioners how to effectively use their body mass in techniques while moving with balance, power, speed, and precision. Which brings up my other point: Stance usage is dynamic, not static. When first learning stances, people spend hours just standing in them. Taking four steps forward, four steps back. Again. Standing some more---building the body knowledge of how a proper stance feels. But proper _use_ of a stance isn't about standing in one and then performing a technique. Depending on the technique, it might be performed while moving into or through the stance---or even out of it. But the importance lies in the fact that the body shifting that goes into movement from stance to stance is the part that is used to amplify the speed, ease, and power of the technique. Starting in a neutral position, step forward into a front stance and perform a front punch. Do you step down, assume the stance, and then punch after the body motion has ceased? or do you slide the foot forward, timing the punch so that it lands just as the body reaches a classic front stance? Obviously the second, which uses movement and body shifting to create a much more powerful blow without loss of balance, speed, or control. Doing it the first way, you might as well not have moved into stance at all. The second (and proper) method uses the movement to DO something. (Note: this is different from the "punch as you stomp" type of movement in that foot is already in position, and the punch occurs as the body mass shifts forward and you bend the knee.) Stance usage isn't really about the ending position---it is about how you get there. The ending position is important because it gives the body a goal and a known ending point, which trains the body to move correctly and with balance---but when USING stances the important part occurs while getting there. Stance practice may be static for lower ranks, but upper ranks should be doing dynamic stance practice also. And stance _usage_ as a basis for technique should be dynamic---otherwise it is useless. If it isn't, why bother with a stance? You aren't using body mass in any effective way, so why not just sit there and flail with your arms and legs? You'd get about the same result. Or instead, use stance practice as a way of understanding movement, so that efficient body movement can add mass to techniques without loss of control. As has been said, basics are important. But it is also important to understand what the basics are for. Hmm. I got a little strident there, at the end. Sorry about that---was just having an argument with someone else off-list who is CERTAIN that one should always fight from a solidly grounded horse stance. What can you say to that? "You have no clue" probably isn't very helpful. I'll note that different arts use stances differently, but in general arts such as Hapkido, Taekwondo, Karate, and some styles of Kung Fu (to name a couple I have direct experience with) use their basic stances as a way of training body movement, as opposed to "that is the way we stand while fighting." I'll also note there one of b's comments was: >After all, when done correctly with toes pointed forward knees >properly bent in and then bowed out and the butt kept in and under a lot >of energy is used and one can tire quickly. ...which makes no sense to me at all. If I do the horse stance correctly, I am relaxed and centered, grounded and solid. If I am tiring quickly, I am too tense, which means my alignment isn't correct, so I'm not centered. Similarly, if I am using a lot of energy, I'm not grounded very well, nor am I balanced. This isn't meant to be a diatribe against "b," but he started the topic and it is his comments I either disagree with, or don't understand. Mostly. I'm picking on his comments for a start. If pressed, I'll pick on someone else for awhile. :) Comments from anyone about body movement? Stance practice? Am I missing someone's meaning here, and just stating the obvious? (Well, I _thought_ I was stating the obvious.) Thomas Nebraska Hapkido Association - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/Hap.html "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: Chris S Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:26:34 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Front stance David Weller wrote: >We are taught to face the back foot in the same direction as the >front foot when taking a front stance. With the feet about a >shoulder width and 1/2 apart, back straight, front knee bent, stance deep >enough that you cannot see your front foot (the knee should be obstructing >your view), weight about evenly distributed (but slightly favoring the >front leg), > rear leg almost straight(but not locked), eyes looking level and forward. > >This is the way I have been taught the forward stance. I would be >interested to know >if there are other variations. I hope and pray that I have been learning it >correctly, >and that I have put this in writing correctly. We have the weight about 70-30 favoring the front leg, and you can cant your back foot out a little if you need it for stability. Our width is just a little more than shoulder width, and everything else sounds pretty much the same. Chris ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:15:42 EDT Subject: the_dojang: ji han jae does anyone know if ji han jae still actively teaches? and if so, the name of his school? the last i heard he was teaching in jersey... i am trying to refer someone to him, but i'm not having much luck with that. thanks, frank ------------------------------ From: RDNHJMS@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:15:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Ji and Lee Mike, Dojunim does occasionally talk about Bruce Lee. There were several of the Hong Kong crowd that trained with GM Ji in the late 60's and early 70's that culminated with movies like Hapkido (later released as Lady Kung Fu with Angela Mau) and Game of Death. Dojunim has always been respectful and admiring of Bruce Lee for his accomplishments. Of interest, Dojunim went to California in June to shoot some interviews at the request of Bruce Lee's widow, Linda. He said they were planning on re-releasing the movie with more of the fight scene between the two (maybe the full 18 minutes that was shot for the scene). I think they will edit out some of the scenes that were filmed using a double after Bruce's death. Anyway, as Mike and other that have trained with Dojunim know, he is very easy to talk to and forthcoming. I have mentioned to a few folks of the limited opportunity that the public may have to train with Dojunim. He has some projects that he is working on, which will take up much of his time over the next two years. The Hapkido folks out there that have not taken the opportunity to train with him should do so quickly, before the training opportunities are no more. Our next seminar is Nov 11-12 (Sat-Sun). Those interested, please contact me. V/R, Rick Nabors ------------------------------ From: "Joel S. Weissler" Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:42:13 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #667 >For the last year, approximately, I have been collapsing during heavy >workouts. It usually happens during sparring classes after I've sparred a >few rounds, but it's happened during other kinds of classes as well. My >legs just seem to give out under me. Usually a dose of gatorade or some >other sugar revives me, and I'm back to sparring in 10 or 15 >minutes. However, it concerns me that this is happening in the first >place! >I'm really in pretty good physical shape. I train TKD 3 or 4 times a week, >do cardio workouts at least 3 times a week, and lift weights 3 times a >week, too. All of this is supervised by a personal trainer. I find the >same kind of thing happens after a tough cardio workout, too. I think I'm >just experiencing a sugar low but I'm not positive. Hmmm -- Let me first give my official disclaimer -I'm not a Doctor. You are in a scary place to be. If your blood sugar, heart and blood oxygen levels under stress are coming out normal, I would first check as to whether you are overheating. How soon after you start sparring do you start sweating ? For some people their is a delay which can cause heat collapse. Sparing gear accelerates the effect. Things to try: before sparing, be sure you are sweating from a slow workup, try wetting down before you spar, try a soft ice pack in your headgear. I would also look at your salt and potassium levels. If your blood pressure tends toward normal or low I would suggest trying potassium supplements. I would also consider whether your lungs are shutting down - if you take a sudafed prior to your workout do you continue to experience this set of problems ? Good luck - keep me posted on your results. ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:56:59 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: slippery shoes In a message dated 10/16/00 9:25:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Someone told to clean the soles with a product like "Fantastic" ( an all purpose cleaner ) with a brush. This did not solve the problem. >> when i played basketball, we used to have a spray in the training kit. we sprayed it on the bottoms of our shoes to prevent slippage. i'm sorry i cant remember what it's called. anyone know of this stuff? melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.chajonshim.com ------------------------------ From: "Wallace, John" Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:20:14 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Speaking of injuries... I'll preface this by stating that I'm not a doc, but I have a pretty good background in anatomy (pre-med in college). I can think of one thing that could have been going on with your leg, which is a rupture of the fascia in your lower leg. There actually is a kind of scary injury (your doctor must have felt that it wasn't the severe form of this - called compartment syndrome) where the sheath itself doesn't rupture, but you get internal bleeding within the "package". The structure of the fascia is kind of like canvas, lots of tough, cross-linked fibers, and it won't allow the swelling from the contusion to expand. In fact, it compresses nerves and major blood vessels, which in turn leads to more swelling, and pressure build-up, etc. People lose limbs over it. I think that crushing traumas and gunshot wounds are the primary contributors to that level of injury though. Maybe the fact that you apparently split the sheath prevented the pressure build up. From: "Udell Holmes II" Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 01:28:59 -0400 Long story short, my doctor told me their is some sort of "package" that covers the muscles in the calf. Just like saran wrap when you buy meat at the grocey store. I must have ruptured the "saran wrap" from the compression of the blow (I was kicking REALLY hard) and had some internal bleeding (I had VERY slight swelling...but a whole lotta pain). Description: I knew it wasn't muscular from the type of pain I was having...All I had to do was lay down a certain way and I had the most excruciating SHARP pain..definately not musclular. ------------------------------ From: "Patrick Lineman" Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 16:00:48 PDT Subject: the_dojang: GM Choi, etc. >It is a tradition to ascribe the start of Hapkido to GM Choi, but it is a convenience that can be said to do a dis-service to the other Korean masters who were not as well publicized.< A tradition and convenience, perhaps, but for whom? If you could please elaborate on who these other "Masters" were who were "Masters" at that time, that have not been given their proper due. I apologize in advance if signing with a nom de web is incorrect; Musashi _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: "Daniel G." Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:56:18 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: karate music >You have got to have that great 70's hit "Kung-fu Fighting"! No Karate >music >medley is complete with out it. ;-) >Scott Reminds me of the last scene in Bowfinger, where they also used Secret Agent Man, which is a little more fast paced, but I don't think you want to inspire people to fight like Eddie Murphy in that scene. ;) ~Daniel _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: "K T" Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:06:55 EST Subject: the_dojang: Regarding non slip shoes Hi Dominic Back in my youth I used to play basketball. We played on highly polished gym floors. I remember we used to use a silicon spray for the bottom of our shoes. It gives the same effect as wetting them but lasts longer. Sorry but I couldn't even hazard a guess at the name of the product. (Also uncertain that the product names would be the same between Australia and America even if I could remember it.) Trust you can find something similar. Noel _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:40:57 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: ji han jae > does anyone know if ji han jae still actively teaches? and if so, the name of > his school? the last i heard he was teaching in jersey... i am trying to > refer someone to him, but i'm not having much luck with that. Check with Ken MacKenzie's dojang at 609-768-KICK. It is located at 200 White Horse Rd, Voorhees, NJ 08043. I have DoJu Ji's direct phone #, but I'm not sure if he wants it given out or not.?.?. Anytime you can spend with DoJu Ji is well worth your time. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:44:00 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #669 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.