From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #703 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 3 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 703 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: V7 #702 the_dojang: re: the first question the_dojang: Shaun Fortune, this one is for you... the_dojang: Re: Starting a discussion.... the_dojang: Re: Mr. Howard=schools in Illinois the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1280 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Smith Gordon SSgt 752MUNSS/SFO Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:29:54 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: RE: V7 #702 "I like this system and want to fully progress and understand the "whole system," not just the techniques. I waited thirteen years for it and can proudly and honestly say that I deserve it. After Do Ju Nim Kimm wrapped that black belt around my waist, I realized the meaning of all those years of training...I am now an "Advanced Student." "I wish there was a way to bottle this sentiment and hand it out free to each new student. I think you truly caught the flavor of the Martial spirit, and can't think of too many GM who would be better to study under than GM Kimm and his organization." Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims - --I'm glad that at least one of you caught the flavor too! Thanks Bruce...Han Sun Bi Nim Gordon2-sends... Han Mu Do ------------------------------ From: "Douglas Kelshaw, MPA" Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:36:16 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: re: the first question I would say to the questioner "I have read a lot about the history of the martial arts, and how this influenced this art and how this person took this knowledge and founded this art. The question is: there a way to sort out the fact from fiction? ..." etc. NO DEMONSTRATION RISES HIGHER THAN THE CONSCIOUSNESS FROM WHICH IT EMANATES The proof in the pudding is in the tasting, and with any luck, few of us "martial artists" have to taste the pudding of proof. In other words, be at peace and be still and you will find the answer. ------------------------------ From: "Rebel Resources" Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:30:58 -0900 Subject: the_dojang: Shaun Fortune, this one is for you... Shaun, Davenport is ony 30 minutes away isn't it? - - William - ------------------------------ From: J Thomas Howard Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:20:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido dojang in Iowa... Sometime after the beginning of the year, a student of mine is going to be relocating to the Quad Cities area (Davenport, Rock Island, Moline, and Bettendorf) in Iowa and Illinois. Does anyone know of any Hapkido dojangs out there in that area? Please don't tell me to check the directory at http://www.binary.net/thomcat/Hapdir.html --- I know about that one. :) I note a Kuk Sool Won dojang there, which I might have her take a look at, but she'd prefer to stay with Hapkido. Anyone? Thomas (any help would be much appreciated) - - ------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:10:49 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Starting a discussion.... Craig said: >I have read a lot about the history of the martial arts, and how this >influenced this art and how this person took this knowledge and >founded >this art. The question is: Is there a way to sort out the fact >from >fiction? Well, that depends on a few things. One of which is whether or not you think the person telling you the history is honest and reliable. I'll be the first to admit that there's a lot of nonsense out there. Given that fact, it's understandable for many people to constantly question the veracity of what they have been told regarding the origins of the art(s) they study. The only problem with this is that the Martial Arts are supposed to teach us how to be better people. Last time I checked purposeful lying to build up one's own reputation was NOT a good example of living to one's students. So how does one determine whether or not their instructor is being honest about his/his art's history? Well, by comparing what they tell you in other areas to what you know. This will at least give you some basis for accepting what he says. (Please note, this is NOT a fail safe method. Nor does it rule out innocent mistakes. It's sort of like determining who is a reliable witness.) >I mean, is there a way of filtering out the lies, half-truths and >mistakes >that seem so common in today's martial arts? I would have to say that to some degree, yes it is possible. This could be done by publishing actual research articles on the topic (the "Journal of Asian Martial Arts" is a good start). Also, the mass media could do a little better job. (I am reminded of the NBC's Olympic commentary on Taekwon-Do's 2000 year history. Come on folks, these are the same people who are supposed to give us fair and unbiased reporting on the news.) But absolutely? No, there will always be people out there misrepresenting themselves because there will always be people who will lie. >We've seen certain people get rich off their claims of fighting >prowess, >claims that have no basis in facts. In many other businesses, >people >making these type of claims would be shut down or fired from >their jobs. I >can't come in and tell someone that I have a Master >degree when I don't -- >yet someone can claim to be a 8th degree Black >Belt in Tibetan Gopher >Throwing (I like the idea....maybe we should >award honorary black belts in >that? ^_^), and with the explosion of >organizations, there's no telling >how true the claim is. This is an excellent point. I can claim to be the best surgeon in the world, but when the roll the patient in I had better deliver. As for the MA's, one GOOD thing about the different orgs is that you could (at least hypothetically) check on someone's claims to be the world champ, continental champ, natioanl champ, etc. Not exactly the same as checking their combat prowess, but at least it's a start. >This does go back to the discussion about the Hwangdo, Frank Dux, and > >stances that have been on the list. If a Korean learned Karate in >Japan, >then goes back to Korea and teaches what he knows as Tae Kwon >Do, how >honest is that? Well, that depends on how close to the original karate it is. Is it still the same karate that they learned in Japan? In that case it would be better to call it Kong Soo or Tang Soo (both of which are Korean versions of the word "karate"). Is it changed slightly in technique but still quite similar to what they originally were taught? If this is the case then maybe a better name would be something like "My style of Kong Soo Do". Has it been changed enough in technique and evn philosophy that it can be clearly distinguished from karate? If that is the case then go ahead and rename it Taekwon-Do because, you could argue, it is a new art. I think there is some merit to the above. It moves from teaching the same art, teaching one's own style of the art, and teaching another art. >A lot of arts claim to be 'pure,' handed down from Master to Student >for X >hundred years, yet there are techniques and forms that have >their basis in >another style. How many so call 'Ninja' styles were >there back in the >80's? Most of these teachers wouldn't have known a >real ninja if one >walked up and popped in the nose! Let us not confuse correlation with causation. Just because two styles have reverse punches in them it doesn't mean style A came from (or was even influenced) by style B. It's possible, but is not necessarily the case. Many people will and have openly claimed being influence by other arts (i.e., Choi Yong Sul by Daito ryu, Gen. Choi Hong Hi by Taekkyun and Shotokan, Byung In Yun by Shudokan, etc.). Now, were these men teaching the same arts that they themselves had learned? Maybe at first but over time they changed things enough that this would not be the case. >There is clearly cultural influences that went from China to Japan to > >Korea to China and back again. Can anyone claim that they teach >a 'pure' >art anymore, one that hasn't been influenced by contact with >other arts? I >don't think anyone can honestly do so these days. Some >will list what >influenced their art and make no secret of it. Others >will go out of the >way to hide that influence. In my opinion one can still claim to teach a "pure" art given certain distinctions. You are absolutely correct about contact with others having an influence on us. No man is an island, as the poet John Dunne said. However, if one takes Judo as an example I doubt any would claim that it is Jujutsu anymore. There has been enough of a change that you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would say that it was even an amalgam of Jujutsu styles. Of course Jigoro Kano invented Judo by combining several styles of Jujutsu but does this mean Judo isn't a "pure" art? It's not in the sense that it's a derivative of other arts, but it is in the sense that it's different than its root arts. >Yet, I cannot sit here and say that teacher 'A' is teaching a good art > >with a solid background and linage while teacher 'B' style history was > >cribbed off the back of a cereal box. How much Asian History does the > >average person know? Not much. If a person earns a green belt in style > >A, a red Belt in style B and a brown belt in style C, he could, in > >theory, call himself a master, open up his own school and teach. He > >could make up a background, and not be challenged by the average >person. True. But then again, the average person doesn't know very much U.S. history let alone Asian history (let alone Korean Martial Art history). Frankly part of the problem is just getting people interested in reading, let alone reading Asian history. >The sad thing is that to crack down on these fakers is to endanger the > >spread of Martial arts. With the fragmentation, it would be impossible > >for the MA community to police themselves, which would mean that the > >government would have to do it. And seeing the way they handle things > >like gun control and the justice system, the last thing I would want >to >do if I was the owner of a MA school is to go through the >bureaucratic >nightmare that would be thrust upon me should the >government get involved. I would like to see governmental control/influence of the MA's limited as well (very limited). In my own opinion the principle of subsidiarity should be applied to this (and all other) governmental endeavours: the lowest level of government should be used unless they are incapable of rectifying the problem. We don't need the federal government stepping in if the state goovernment can do the job, and we don't need the state government stepping in if the city can do the job. Likewise, in MA's we don't need the government controlling things if the organizations do a good job. The "problem" is there are a variety of organizations each with its own guidelines and rules. It becomes a matter of which organization does the best quality control of its own members. >To sum up, what can we do to weed out the fakes and the bad apples >that >give MA a black eye? It's one thing to walk away from a bad >school, but >it's another thing to try and close down a school. Lawyers >and Doctors >would be barred from practice if they lied like some of >these phonies >have. But what can we do? Weed out the bad apples? Well, they seem to take care of that on their own (at least from what I have seen). If something is really bad you can't force people to stay with it. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:42:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Mr. Howard=schools in Illinois Mr. Howard asked: Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:20:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido dojang in Iowa... Sometime after the beginning of the year, a student of mine is going to be relocating to the Quad Cities area (Davenport, Rock Island, Moline, and Bettendorf) in Iowa and Illinois. Does anyone know of any Hapkido dojangs out there in that area?> Response: I believe there is a Kuk Sool Won(s) school there. Check with World Kuk Sool Won Assoc., Houson, TX. Kuk Sool Won is Hapkido. McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:21:47 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #703 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.