From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #722 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 20 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 722 In this issue: the_dojang: References the_dojang: Re: Schools in gyms the_dojang: Re: 4th dan and 3's the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #719 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #721 Re: the_dojang: "WTF" ITF merger Re: the_dojang: sour grapes the_dojang: Congrads to Stan the_dojang: Re: ITF/WTF 4th Dans and the number 3 the_dojang: mini-style? the_dojang: 3 in Korean culture the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1280 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Reed Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:53:53 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: References A reference was given to http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/docs/rec/stretching/stretching_toc.html as a good site for stretching information. While it does have many good, informative sections it is only a compilation of other information. The author clearly states that he is not a medical or fitness professional. His experience is limited to a number of years in martial arts and many in ballet and dance. Moreover, it makes statements about stretching regimes and methods which are not up to date or which do not reflect current best practices as endorsed by leading sports medicine and fitness organizations. If you want basic background in the science of stretching, it is fine. If you are looking for the best way to improve flexibility, see a trainer or medical professional who knows and practices the best methods. Last, and hopefully gently, if you wish to make a recommendation for training information, it seems responsible to be sure it is accurate and up to date. There are many junior members who would take this recommendation from an experienced person at face value. I hesitated at writing this because it seems critical of both the recommender and the author of the site. My hope is that we can peer review each other's comments rationally to get out the best information. Regards, David ------------------------------ From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 17:12:29 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Schools in gyms The points were well taken, but they point up opportunities as well. A school within a large gym (5000+ members) can do quite well. The marketing of your school is always your responsibility, but a quality facility can offer advantages over storefront schools, like showers and lockers. ------------------------------ From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 17:27:13 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: 4th dan and 3's Y'all notice that over time the grade level required to promote went up? My old Poom-se book had WTF rules listed stating three 5th dans were necessary for promotion. My later versions now say 6th dan. A cynical observer might think it was due to the rise in rank of non-koreans, but what happened? Or have they fallen into the trap of thinking that what was old was the right way, so new 5th dans just don't have it like they used to? Maybe they realize they have caused dan rank inflation for income, but needed to retain control? Anyomne else see this change? ------------------------------ From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:51:44 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #719 "If I remember correctly, an ITF 4th dan can pass someone to 2nd dan" ITF 4th degree is allowed to test up to 2nd degree. "I must have missed something. What happened in Sydney? This what happens when your computer breaks and the radio falls out of your car at the same time." After the games there are a number of law suits in the WTF regarding the selection of national teams, who was allowed/certified to compete, and I heard rumblings about restraint of trade. ( I haven’t figured that one out yet) Concordtkd ------------------------------ From: ICyrus8528@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:09:00 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #721 No, the seminar scheduled for February in Chicago is not neccessarily a Kuk Sool seminar. GM Suh usually covers a broad range of skills common to Hapkido and Kuk Sool. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster ICF ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:46:38 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: "WTF" ITF merger On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 ConcordTKD@aol.com wrote: > There has been much "talk" on web recently about a merger (again) between > the ITF and "WTF" (I put the "" around WTF because I think these folks mean > between the ITF and Kukki related groups. What are some of the opinions of > members of this list? > > Could a merger work? > What form would it take? > How would sparring change for both groups? > Patterns? > The WTF unlike the ITF is setup to allow (even if reluctantly) significant differences in the teaching style of ranking grandmasters (9th Dan) in the system. In the ITF there is only one set of forms and one set of sparring rules -- period. In the WTF although the Tae Guek's and Olympic style sparring are the recognized forms and sparring methods -- 9th Dan's do vary their teaching from this. So the ITF could continue fairly close to what it does currently. Students would probably begin to learn the Tae Geuk forms, and begin to learn Olympic style sparring -- but the ITF organizations could remain fairly close to their roots. > The WTF will slowly fall apart over time and the ITF will gain over time. > There will be no merger just one acclimating to the other. The fall out > after the what happen in Sydney just seam to be accelerating the process. > I think the WTF's hold in the Olympics is well established. And as such the WTF is likely to gain -- simply because they are in the Olympics. There are many people that join the WTF -- simply to do stand-up martial arts at Olympic level. In many cases these are people from unrelated styles or systems that just want to compete. Being in the Olympics also means the WTF has to be less rigid in it's requirements and more accomidating to outside groups. And it has certain standards forced on it by the IOC. But, these things probably in most regard make it more attractive to students... Erik Kluzek Boulder CO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:32:28 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: sour grapes On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Ray Terry wrote: > > I predict the ITF as an organization will splinter and fall apart shortly > after Major General Choi (Ret) passes on. > It is certainly possible that the ITF will splinter after Choi retires or passes on. But, you have to consider that the ITF is a huge organization! And it's made up of many strong units. Most likely the national governing bodies will overall remain intact, even if the ITF as a whole splits. I mean is the USTF or KATU going to fall to pieces? Probably not. Most likely some National Governing Bodies or individual masters will split off. Some groups will form their own smaller organization, and others will align with other organizations (such as the "evil" WTF ;^) ). But, if General Choi makes a clear succession and get's the leadership to buy in on that succession -- I think it's possible that overall the ITF will remain intact. And if the ITF survives the baton passing of leadership from Choi to someone else -- then it's likely to stick around for a long time indeed. But, this is a common theme in martial arts -- a leader passes on and all hell breaks loose in the organization that person founded. So I think only time will tell what will happen... The WTF does have an advantage in this area. The ITF has been driven by one charasmatic leader at it's head. Once, that leader moves on, it's unclear what will happen. The WTF has already united "waring" factions, and although they have a president there isn't anyone in the same role as Choi has been. The WTF will continue and is setup such that they will survive changes in leadership -- the same isn't clear in the ITF. Of course this is all very much -- IMHO. Erik Kluzek Boulder CO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: "hununpa" Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:48:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Congrads to Stan Stan, Congratulations on your perseverance. I see you have learned one of the many truisms of Martial Arts...all wood is NOT created equally :-). Keep training hard, and looking forward to hearing about your Yu Dan Ja exam on the list! Glad to see Mr. Garcia chooses to keep his standards high. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:19:29 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF/WTF 4th Dans and the number 3 > From: "hununpa" > Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:08:38 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: ITF/WTF 4th Dans > > Although I generally stay out of the ITF/WTF discussion, I will offer this > on ranks and testing. > > The Korean culture places an emphasis on the number three. > Our (Korean) Dan system is based on three levels of three. > 1st through 3rd Dan are adept students (Yu Dan Ja, Kyo Sa Nim), although > usually qualified to teach classes. > 4th through 6th Dan are chief instructors of schools (Ko Dan Ja, Sah Bum > Nim). > 7th through 9th Dan are Masters (Kwan Jang Nim, Chung Sah Nim). > > I would agree that the 4th Dan is a Dan examiner as he/she is qualified to > promote to any of the student levels including student Dan. > The way I had it explained to me, 4th Dan is instructor, 5th Dan is Master > Instructor, and 6th Dan is Senior Master Instructor. > 7th Dan carries the tittle of Master. > > My Instructor refers to me as Mr. Richards and as a Master Instructor (TSD > applies master status to 4th Dan). My students call me Sah Bum Nim. > > Your in Training, > > Charles Richards > Moja Kwan TSD > ITF is thus: 1st to 3rd Dan Assistant Instructor Bo Sah Bum 4th to 6th Dan Instructor Sah Bum 7th & 8th Dan Master Sah Hyung 9th Dan Grand Master Sah Syung > > ------------------------------ > > From: Ray Terry > Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:33:53 PST > Subject: the_dojang: the number 3 > > > The Korean culture places an emphasis on the number three. > > Exactly. I find it amusing how some self-appointed 'experts' on Korean > culture are not aware of this most basic fact. > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Three is important beyond the Korean boarders, being significant in much of Asia (and other parts or the world). What gets me are 10th degree black belts in Korean Martial Arts. It was explained to me that 9, being the square of three, was the most logical highest rank in martial arts. Anybody else heard this? Robert Martin ------------------------------ From: "hununpa" Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:53:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: mini-style? <> Daniel, I guess I have the inovative vision of pioneers like Musashi, Sigong Lee, and Hwang Kee. Where would we be today without such risk takers, inovators, adaptors, and eclectic martial artists? But let me clarify, mini certainly defines Moja Kwan in current size, but mini-style doesn't describe the organization. If forced to label I'd say our style is Korean martial arts with Jeet Kune Do theories. Or put another way, a strong base of traditional Tang Soo Do augmented with Hapkido, Taekwondo and other Korean martial arts to develope a player versed in all ranges of combat. Seriously, I have no desire to create a mini-style, Tang Soo Do (a mini-style in it's own right) is fine by me. Moja Kwan is simply my forum for my personal martial arts philosophy to merge with Tang Soo Do. Train with Jung Do in your hearts The rest is commentary, Richards Do Ju :-) Moja Kwan TSD P.S. Many thanks for all the list and off-list comments on Garage Bands. Looks like option A - grow with quality in the small garage setting :-) _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:26:54 PST Subject: the_dojang: 3 in Korean culture A 'reprint'... Ray - ------ It was originally just explained to me that three was very important in the Korean culture because the number three was indicative of earth, man, and the heavens. But I wanted to find a little something more given that this view has been challenged by some in the past, so I went to the very interesting Korea Insights website (http://korea.insights.co.kr). An excellent resource on the Korean culture provided by the Samsung Foundation of Culture. One of the items documented there is "3 in Korea". The following is quoted directly: "Koreans have always had a special attachment for the number three. This sottae (graphic of a wooden post with 3 wooden ducks mounted on the top is omitted here), one of the many 'spirit posts' found at the entrance to rural villages across the country, is topped by three ducks, symbolizing prosperity and fertility as well as agrarian society's affinity for water. The number three has had profound significance since ancient times. Koreans have long believed that the harmonious balance of three elements -- the heavens, earth and human energy -- essential to all existence, and Koreans' affinity for the number remains powerful today." "Korean thought and religion is replete with threes, symbolizing completion and perfection. Tan'gun, Korean's mythical founder, was a triune figure, simultaneously a creator, teacher and temporal ruler. Buddhism centers around the trinity of the Buddha, his teachings and the Buddhist community. The number also figures prominently in folks belief. For example, when a son is born, the kumjul, or 'forbidding rope' hung across the gate of the house, is decorated with three red peppers and three pieces of charcoal." "In traditional society, children were expected to mourn their parents for three years after their death. Today most funerals are held three days after death, and three bows before the memorial alter are standard at rites paying homage to ancestors." "Much of Korea's traditional music follows a three-beat rhythm, and Korean food revolves around the three condiments: soy sauce, bean paste and red pepper paste. Many of the spirits found in folks religions come in threes, as do the decorations worn with the national costume, hanbok. In fact, it is difficult to find an aspect of Korean life that does not feature the number three." In addition, in the website's item describing "T'aeguk, the Supreme Ultimate. ... the three-part t'aeguk symbolizes the heaven, earth and humanity. Each part is separate but the three parts exist in unity and are equal in value. As the yin and yang of the Supreme Ultimate merge and make a perfect circle, so do heaven, earth and humanity create the universe. Therefore the Supreme Ultimate and the three-part t'aeguk both symbolize the universe." ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:28:34 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #722 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.