From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #725 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 21 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 725 In this issue: the_dojang: Sin Moo the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won query the_dojang: hip flexor injury the_dojang: Re: Three the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won Question and response to Master Simms the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won Question the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #724 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #724 the_dojang: Re: Punching the_dojang: Horizontal vs. vertical and rope the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #724 the_dojang: Re: kuk sool won the_dojang: Re: Traditional Rope tying techniques the_dojang: Serious note=happy holidays the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1280 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 7:10:56 PST Subject: the_dojang: Sin Moo > short as 6 feet and as long as 10 feet. One other dying art is the matter > of belt or rope techniques which, even when they are found are usually of > the snaring or entraping variety. Though there is some evidence to support > the use of some locking and pinning techniques to support the use of rope > for binding (hey, now theres' an idea) I have been hard pressed to find a > traditional Korean school that still teaches such. We still have short stick, long stick, sword, rope/belt, cane, etc. training in Sin Moo Hapkido, at the Dan levels... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 06:58:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won query An inquiry on Kuk Sool Won, re: Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:25:08 - -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Kuk Sool Won QuestionHi all I was just wondering if any one has any views on Kuk Sool Won. I'm due to start lessons next week and from what I've seen, it's a VERY comprehensive system and seems similar to Hapkido (weapons, joint locks, throws, kicks, sweeps, grappling etc...) Although I have heard that it's made up of several different systems and is not therefore a martial art in it's own right?Any views would be appreciated. Many thanks.Rich> Response: I studied Kuk Sool Won in U.S. and Korea. Achieved first dan. Then left when new location had no local school. Subsequently studied other styles. My opinion only: - - Yes, a comprehensive system. - - Curriculum is spelled out and clearly delineated.Very organized format. Caveats: - - Be aware of the fact that there is a tendency for this system to make you believe it is the ultimate Korean system. - - The majority of joint locks and throwing techniques are Hapkido. - - Much bowing. Bowing to flag, bowing to Korea flag, bowing to instructors, bowing to head instructor, bowing to Grand Master. - - Bowing at closed tournaments. - - Etiquette, etiquette, etiquette. Part of the curriculum. Spelled out in the handbook. Be nice to everyone. - - Never ever, ever, tell a convinced Kuk Sool Won instructor that Kuk Sool Won is a combination of several Korean (or other) martial arts. This is allegedly the Korean National Art ? Finally, enjoy your training. Just keep an open mind. McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "mo :b" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:00:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: hip flexor injury i was lucky enough to bruise my hip flexor in high school where there was an excellent trainer available to work with me. i had to take two weeks off my cross-country training and instead we used hot pack to heat my hip area, we stretched it, then we iced it. after that, i slowly worked up to my regular workout, but always iced the hip after practice. so my advice is time-off, heat/ice combination, and stretching. and once you feel better, always continue to stretch the area well. the "mantinence" stretch i do looks like a lunge. i injured my left hip flexor, so i lung with my right foot (keeping the knee over the ankle). the difference is that i place my left knee on the ground slightly behind me and tilt my pelvis. you should feel a stretch down the front of your hip. if you need a deeper stretch (or others) you really should seek our a professional to help you. this is a very painful injury that will stay with you or get worse as time goes by. good luck. ____________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:11:55 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Three >From: "Patrick L" >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:26:00 -0800 >Subject: the_dojang: Three >Was I the only one that enjoyed the irony on the following statements, > >both appearing in the same issue? >>"The number also figures prominently in folks belief. For example, >>when >>a son is born, the kumjul, or 'forbidding rope' hung across the >>gate of >>the house, is decorated with three red peppers and three >>pieces of >>charcoal." >>It was explained to me that 9, being the square of three, was the most >>logical highest rank in martial arts.< >From peppers and charcoal to logic ?!? ... I offer my observation with >respect, without malice to authors or cultures. >Getting in the Way, >Patrick I think you are missing something in your critique. Too often people in North America and Western Europe operate from an Enlightenment/Rationalistic mindset. They believe that everything can be explained with the use of reason. In a lot of cases (not all) this is true. However, this doesn't mean that one must always present reasoning in (for example) symbolic logic, or similar terms. A lot of the time, people will express a belief in symbolic terms. This should NOT be interpreted, as is often the case, that symbolism is meaningless. ALL symbols mean something. They are means of communicating an idea. In the above example perhaps you shouldn't move from peppers and charcoal to logic. Perhaps you should move from logic to peppers and charcoal. Just a thought. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ___________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Thayne_Coffman@trilogy.com Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:24:11 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won Question and response to Master Simms > I was just wondering if any one has any views on Kuk Sool Won. I'm due to > start lessons next week and from what I've seen, it's a VERY comprehensive > system and seems similar to Hapkido (weapons, joint locks, throws, kicks, > sweeps, grappling etc...) > > Although I have heard that it's made up of several different systems and is > not therefore a martial art in it's own right? Hi - I'm a 1st degree Kuk Sool student (Jo Kyo), so I figured I'd respond, since I don't write much on this list. If there's one thing I've found, by the way, it's that many people have opinions about Kuk Sool Won. ;-) I took TKD for a long time, but enjoy Kuk Sool more, primarily because it's a more comprehensive curriculum. If you train long enough, it seems to me that you get at least some training in all of the major categories of fighting (grappling, ground-fighting, strikeing, locks and holds, weapons, etc.). Anyway, that's one reason I enjoy it. I have no experience with Hapkido, but my understanding is that Kuk Sool is pretty similar, and grew from the same roots (although some people would get pissed at me for agreeing to that). As for the "it's technically not a real style because it's a collection of stuff", I've heard that argument before, and don't know the real answer. I'm sure Kuk Sa Nim would argue against it. To be honest, it doesn't matter too much to me because I like what I'm learning. So, where are you starting training? And, for Master Simms (apologies if that's the wrong title) : > short as 6 feet and as long as 10 feet. One other dying art is the matter > of belt or rope techniques which, even when they are found are usually of > the snaring or entraping variety. Though there is some evidence to support > the use of some locking and pinning techniques to support the use of rope > for binding (hey, now theres' an idea) I have been hard pressed to find a > traditional Korean school that still teaches such. Kuk Sool has a set of techniques labeled 'po bok sool' (although I may be butchering the spelling), which I think just translates to 'belt techniques'. They are taught at either 2nd or 3rd degree, I believe, and involve defense using a belt. Most of the techniques involve blocking an attack with the belt, and then a throw or takedown, and then either a pin or what I guess you could call "binding" with the belt. I'm not sure if this stuff is what you were saying was a dying art, or if it's what you were saying was replacing the older techniques. - -Thayne Coffman, Jo Kyo ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:29:26 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won Question Hello Rich, You are correct that Kuk Sool Won is similar to Hapkido with a several distinct differences. I have trained in both Kuk Sool Won and traditional Hapkido. As for your question, Kuk Sool Won is a martial art in its own right. If it was required for a martial art to come solely from one source I don't believe that we would have any "true" martial arts. All current martial arts have come from several other martial arts and most openly admit to this. Only a few very narrow minded people believe that their art is "pure" of any influence from any other style. When all is said and done individual martial art styles have more in common than they have that is different. Respectfully, Richard Zaruba ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:05:11 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #724 Dear Mac: Thanks for adding clarity to the circumstances. In the absence of a kwan (in the strict Korean sense) there is plainly a "kwan" to rely on in the community sense. A man whose has friends is truly blessed. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:36:25 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #724 Dear Rich: I think you will find Kuk Sool Won not only very challenging but very rewarding as well. The history of the Korean people has many dark pages and it has been difficult for them to maintain a cohesive culture through the regular violations of their neighbors. However, one of the strengths of the Korean people is their adaptability and perseverance and this is probably best reflected in much of their Martial traditions. Many traditions since WW II pay homage to past martial traditions without actually being directly related to or in linear descent from those traditions. Kuk Sool Won is an example of one such tradition. Despite its use of what might be techniques superficially similar to the Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu influence through what is now called Hapkido, there is a definite homage paid to the Chinese heritage of Chuan Fa and Chin Na. Both arts of which are popular in Korea and have been influential in Korean martial tradition for a few hundred years. Kuk Sool Won is a Mudo in the traditional sense in that it is a comprehensive system of both armed and unarmed combat. That it is a relatively new revivification of combat techniques known for quite sometime in Korea does not take away from its authenticity. Rather, I find its strength lies in the fact that b/c it is a relatively new art founded in more traditional art that its legitimate hierarchy is more clearly defined, its curriculum is standardized and accepted, and the training goals, both spiritual and physical are not far removed from the originator, GM Seo. For myself I have elected to remain with Hapkido, which, by comparison, may appear somewhat less "polished" or even primitive in some respects. I suspect there more than a little personal preference in this choice. However, if you will accept some advice from a stranger, I will heartily encourage you to stay as "close to the tree" as possible. Of late I have noted occasional offerings of Kuk Sool Won "hybrids" which are essentially TKD or TSD or even HKD classes which "also teach Kuk Sool" (or some mix). I suspect this is to exploit the weapons training which GM Seo has organized within his art. From all that I have read and researched Kuk Sool Won is not something GM Seo popped together in a Summer from spare parts. Your opportunity to train at a legitimate Kuk Sool Won school is not a small blessing. Enjoy. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Jim Griffin" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:35:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Punching We had some folks from the Ving Tsun Museum (http://home.vtmuseum.org/) in Dayton, OH into our Dojang a month or two ago. They did some TKD stuff with us and gave us a really cool Ving Tsun demo (including some stuff where the leader sparred with his eyes closed - pretty neat). He was answering our questions about stuff like the vertical punches and his take is that, among other things, a vertical punch is a very natural and easy thing to throw out there. If I recall correctly, one of the tenants of that art is to take natural body motions and postures and build from there. That art definitely looks interesting enough for further exploration. - --- begin quoted message --- From: RumNCoke220@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:23:13 EST Subject: the_dojang: Punching I have trained a handful of times with Wing Chun stylists and they like to punch with the fist in a vertical position. I am interested in anyone's opinion on their preference, but I am more interested in the reasoning behind the vertically positioned punch. - --- end quoted message --- - ---===--- Jim Griffin www.wuma.com sitebuilder.liveuniverse.com/jgriffin/ _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:50:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Horizontal vs. vertical and rope The vertical punch, as I was taught, was initially used by the Okinawans to strike much taller Chinese attackers. Try to throw a horizontal punch and make hard contact with a target that is as high as your face. You will notice that your hand is out of alignment at the wrist with your forearm. Now do the same thing with a vertical punch..It is MUCH easier. Rope techniques (pho bak sool) are rapidly vanishing because they are, in my opinion, the most difficult techniques to teach or practice. At 1st dan I teach cane to my blackbelts and after 2 years of work with the cane, my students are fairly adept, but at 2nd dan when they first grab up a belt to learn rope techniques, you can see the horror in their eyes. This weapon has no specific shape or size, and the length is constantly being altered during the process of completing any given technique. I have, on occasion, been forced to go into my office, out of sight of the training floor, to regain my composure after watching and "adept" blackbelt slap himself in the face with his own weapon, or try to move while standing on the long end of the "rope", or to manage somehow to tie himself to his opponent during the execution of some technique. During the students next 3 years of training he will learn to trap, throw and lock with this weapon, but more importantly, he or she will learn that there is always more to learn, and just because you are good at something doesn't mean you are good at everything.......JRW www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:03:03 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #724 Dear John: One of the things I enjoy about training in Hapkido is that there is relatively less preoccupation with stylistic aspects of technique. My classes tend to emphasize individuals finding and honing techniques which maximize the use of their particular body types. That said, I would not necessarily, corral a student into using one type of punch vs another but rather work to identify which bio-mechanic best aligns with their goals and body types. Now that I got the disclaimer out of the way, let me tell you that I use a variety of fist strikes and that the over-riding factor in determining rotation of the fist has less to do with how I start than with the distance of the strike. I have found that through the extension of the arm, the bones of the fist and arm naturally align as the arm extends. Try it yourself from a combat position (fists up, palms faced in) and slowly extend your arm. You will find that the fist turns over all by itself: you don't have to "turn it." Now the problem comes in when you strike to less than (or greater than) full extension. A jab (J. ta-te strike) tends to be still vertical as it never achieves full extension. On the other hand, over-extension seems to produce over-rotation and subsequent unbalancing and is the stuff of comedy skits. There has been many an on-going dialogue about the efficacy of the vertical vs the horizontal. Personally I would recommend that you get a single pine board, and have a friend hold it. Punch the board to break it and examine the surface of the broken pieces to determine the natural cant of your fist on impact. Just let you body tell you how it needs to hit in order to perform work rather than impose some unnatural system that you mind engineers for it. Of course, this is the Hapkido pragmatism in me coming out, so don't expect your Hyung to look spectacular for utilizing this method, yes? :-). Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Migukyong@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:07:56 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: kuk sool won though i do not practice ksw, i do have an opinion on whether or not ksw is a martial art. you noted that ksw is formed from several arts and is therefore not a martial art in its own right. by applying the same standard to martial arts in general that would make virtually all martial arts, non arts as none of them are "pure". imho, focus on what you learn, and apply it. if you enjoy it, keep it up. if you do not, find something else. frank ------------------------------ From: Migukyong@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:11:59 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Traditional Rope tying techniques The american dragon martial arts academy of ocoee, FL preserves many of these older techiniques including archery from horseback, whish is an old khf high dan requirement if memory serves. The KMAIA also preserves these weapons techiniqes and in fact will be having a couple of weapons instructors coming from the ROK in a couple of months. for more information call them directly at 407-654-0555. frank ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:49:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Serious note=happy holidays Wanted to wish all a happy holiday. Those who do not celebrate Thanksgiving, also sending out a positive vibe ! Keep the information flowing, have heated debates then move on, and keep your sense of humor. Ken McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:43:14 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #725 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.