From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #730 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 24 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 730 In this issue: the_dojang: Three the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #726 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #728 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jere-hilland" Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:12:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Three While at the Independence Hall in Korea, Dr. Kimm, He Young was explaining why there are 9 dan in hapkido using the importance of the #3 during a lecture on the history of the Korean flags. In the museum, they have many original historically significant flags of the ROK showing the evolution of the modern ROK flag. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul Question: > What gets me are 10th degree black belts in Korean Martial Arts. It was explained to me that 9, being the square of three, was the most logical highest rank in martial arts. Anybody else heard this? ------------------------------ From: "Jim Griffin" Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:41:49 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #726 You are quite correct that this is Sifu Meng. He was very impressive and seems to be a great guy. - --- begin quoted message --- From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:05:24 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #725 < >> If I am not mistaken that would have been Sifu Benny Meng. He is an outstanding ving Tsun (Wing Chun) practioner. Being a personal student of Moy Yat. Any study of the system or with Sifu Meng will bring about great revelations. Michael Rowe - --- end quoted message --- - ---===--- Jim Griffin www.wuma.com sitebuilder.liveuniverse.com/jgriffin/ ______________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:43:08 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #728 Dear Andrew: Thanks for taking the time to write back. Sometimes I think that the Korean military tradition is something like that quandry about whether the water glass is half empty or half full. I do note that your response seems to be in line with what one might call the "generally accepted" historical line. Please don't hear any rebuke or condescending attitude in this. For years I was in the same place and generally accepted the very same material you have shared without much question. The Korean military tradition as a cohesive curriculum traces its roots back to the Three Kingdoms Period. I hope you will accept my apology if I do not cite each and every resource however, not only the well known Shilla kingdom with its Hwa Rang warriors but Paekche and Koryugo as well had established military institutions which not only taught martial skills but codes of conduct as well. Were these arts original to the Korean people? To some degree yes and some degree no. The roots of H2H combat such as we know them today had no small foundation in the wrestling arts of Northeastern Asia and survive to some extent in the modern Ssierum of today. However, certainly the influx of Chinese culture beginning in the 3rd century added what we call now Chin Na techniques, additional striking and kicking techniques, various Chinese weapons and Order of Battle all of which were given that unique Korean "spin" by the Korean people. We also must not discount the various influences back and forth across the Sea of Japan. I think what you may be saying is that there is no patri-linear tradition of MA in Korea such as the Japanese established with the Ryu-ha system and you are absolutely right. The simile' I like to use with my students is that in the Korean tradition, martial art was a function of the central government and as such training could be characterized as the equivelent of our modern Basic Training and AIT. The COMPREHENSIVE ILLUSTRATED MANUAL OF MARTIAL ARTS written by Lee in 1790 reports to draw on MA treatise dated as early as 1595. In its writing its draws on over 200 various books, treatises and manuals authored by a variety of sources and organized by Lee and Park into a single manual which could be used by the Yi Dynasty to train its military. I am not sure that your comment about Korea being "at peace" with little need of military prowess is entirely accurate. While it is probably true that Korea had little need of a military as a arm of international policy, there was a great need for internal policing. Following the two Manchu invasions there were any number of revolts by the peasantry including one that nearly toppled the government. In addition there were persecutions of both the Catholic and Protestant populations as well as an Isolationist policy that precipitated confrontations with both the US and France in their turn. In this manner, while military occupations and personnel were given short shrift by the essentially Confucian buracracy, they were also seen as something or a necessary evil. To tell you the truth, Andrew, I suspect that it was this "love/hate" relationship between the government and its military that has created the very conflicted martial tradition we have today with its very conflicted and contradictory history. IMHO where I think we practitioners of the Korean arts here in the US have the greatest problem is that much of our information comes through MA authorities who have a vested interest in presenting history as it supports their particular position or organization. There was one other point that I wanted to comment on but it had to do with your remarks in a following letter. IMHO I don't know that one can characterize what DR. Kimm has done as "synthesize" as much as "structure". I think this is an important distinction because there are many individuals who purport to "synthesize" a "new" art by combining or recombining MA material. In studying Dr. Kimms' approach what I see is an ardent attempt to formulate a cohesive approach within the context of each art (Hapkido; Kuk Sool) and then reorganize technique along the lines of shared biomechanics. I have an appreciation for this as this is the goal of the books that I write, though I have restricted myself to remaining solely within the confines of the art of Hapkido. It is a testament to Dr. Kimms' experience and scholarship that he is able to work this magic between arts. There is a lot of very good historical material out there, but you probably won't find it in BLACK BELT magazine, or in the MA section of Barnes and Nobles or on the MA "Histories" posted by various organizations. You will need to dig and read. The NEW HISTORY OF KOREA is one such resource. I also recommend a two-book source by Columbia University (about $80 US). If you want to use history which is a bit less "erudite" IMHO Dr. Kimms' history in HAPKIDO (AKA "the Hapkido Bible") I think is one of the better researched presentations. Whatever you do, don't stop pushing for answers. What we received from our seniors is our gift from the past. What we do with that information is our gift to the future. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:29:17 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #730 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.