From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #735 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 27 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 735 In this issue: the_dojang: Looking for Do-Jangs the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #731 Re: the_dojang: Looking for Do-Jangs the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #734 the_dojang: Re: Rope tying techniques the_dojang: Re: Problems in the Dojang the_dojang: Problems & winning/losing the_dojang: Re: Canete and Arnis/Escrima the_dojang: Re: Problems in the dojang the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #733 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Farral, Kim G" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:05:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Looking for Do-Jangs Still looking for a Do-Jang in Naperville, Illinois...can anyone out there give me some names, please? The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:39:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #731 Dan Rogers wrote: Tae Kyon translated means smashing with the feet and this can be seen by all of Dr. Kimm and his students with their kicking skills. Dan, what is your source for this translation? I have not seen this one used. T'aekkyon is a very strong kicking art, but the emphasis on kicks may be a modern innovation (since 1960). Duk-Ki Song seems to have placed a greater stress on actual fighting skills, rather than the playful kicking style we see now. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 8:45:36 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Looking for Do-Jangs > Still looking for a Do-Jang in Naperville, Illinois...can anyone out there > give me some names, please? One of my old instructors may have a TKD dojang in Naperville. Check for a PS Academy. If that doesn't work, let me know and I'll give him a call. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:54:21 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #734 Dear Arthur: I was very sorry to read of your situation. I had been snickering up my sleeve regarding all the talk on the Net about 9th and 10th and 12th Dans (Gawd, how we do love our trappings, yes?). Your situation, however, while much more common than I wish, is not even close to a matter for levity. It is the natural result, I'm afraid, of a collision between four naturally occurring forces: What Should Happen, What Did Happen, What People Want, and What People Are Willing To Pay For. Lets start with the first point - What should happen. Somebody had the idea of starting a Korean MA program and using the University facilities to make that happen. OK. What was the original intention? Was this to be a formal or informal program? Was the conduct and the curriculum to be in compliance with the standards for a nationally recognized organization, or was this more of a study group? In the absence of this "mission statement" we then move to point two. What did happen? Like the story of the Elephant and the 6 Blind Men everyone who came to these classes brought their own agenda. Without a fundamental position against which to orient the students, one students' agenda, whether healthy or not, was just about as valid as another students'. Which brings us to point three. What people want. Being an instructor is more than just taking the role. It comes with responsibilities like paperwork, testing, conflict resolution, consensus building, curriculum development and records keeping. It also requires that the designated instructor is the single stabilizing factor to the class. That instructor is also the single stabilizing factor to the organization or the liaison with the board that is that stabilizing factor. Students for their part come to the class to submit to the system in the hopes of attaining the skills and development they associate with this particular art. Which inevitably leads us to point for---- paying the price. What people are willing to pay. Especially in a class such as the one you have described the willingness of the students to be engaged is paramount. Unlike some schools where a students whole responsibility to the class is to pay tuition and keep his uniform clean, the situation you have shared depends on all the students working towards the same goal and pulling their fair share to do it. In the US commercialism has set the standard for substituting $$$ for personal involvement. This does not work in a MA class and not especially in the kind of situation you have characterized. What will be required is to back-up a bit to the fork where your group took the wrong turn and now take the correct turn and you will not be able to do it unless everyone gets off the dime and gets involved. 1.) Your board, specifically your Board secretary has a week to 10 days to produce a mission statement and subsequent guidelines for deportment for your group. 2.) Your instructor has an additional week to 10 days to build consensus regarding how the Boards' guidelines will be expressed on a day-to-day basis. 3.) Unless grades have certification, there is no rank. No honorary belts, freebies, or temps. Your instructor is responsible for establishing the necessary venues for testing and certification. He was asking for trouble handing out a rank he had no business handing out. 4.) As for your BB wannabe, he is not just a problem for the instructor. As you have pointed out he has come to the attention of the entire class. In a more traditional setting the seniors would take him to one side and adjust his attitude. However, in the more "democratic" situation you have described, the "democracy" needs to take responsibility and then speak either through the instructor or through your board. Arthur, if this all sounds a bit cavalier on my part, I ask your forgiveness. I am a traditional Hapkido instructor who uses a non-traditional methodology to teach a rather traditional art. I mention this so you know that I have some experience in reconciling East to West (so to speak). However, one point on which I do not give way and that is that we are speaking of a MARTIAL art, and the core of that word bespeaks Discipline and Self-discipline in its base form. I am not speaking of push-ups and close-order drill here. Rather, I am talking about the strength of character on the part of all involved to take a position and hold it as their own. Both the problems and their cure can come from this same point. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:20:32 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Rope tying techniques >From: ICyrus8528@aol.com >Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:25:03 EST >Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #727 > >Po Bok Sool (Rope tying skills) has its root in Daito Ryu. This is a >trademark of Daito Ryu. Some Daito Ryu masters of days gone by >emphasized >it more than others. Having lived in Japan and Okinawa for >over a year as >a U.S.Marine, I saw Japanese Police Units use these >skills in restraining >subjects. I am not quite sure if these skills >are actually Korean in >origin. I suspect that they ended up in Hapkido >due to Doju Choi Yong >Sul's Daito Ryu experience. ChoSon Kwon Bup did >not historically have >these skills. I have added Po Bok Sool to the >ChoSon Kwon Bup curiculum >due to my Hapkido and Kuk Sool experience. I >hope that my two cents worth >has helped to clear some things up. >Thanks. > >Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster >Int'l ChoSonDo Fed. I have never heard that Daito Ryu included rope tying techniques in its curriculum, but there are several other Japanese arts that do. Hojo Jutsu (binding art) is part of both Takenouchi Ryu and Itatsu Ryu. Both of these arts are of the Koryu Bujutsu variety, i.e., they are part of Japan's bugei or martial arts that were developed by Samurai. According to Donn Draeger, Hojo Jutsu was developed because at times a Samurai would not want to kill a defeated opponent but instead keep them prisoner. They could use their sageo (the cord attached to their odachi scabbard) as a means of binding their opponent. From what I have seen, these techniques seem to emphasize much more the actiual tying and binding aspect of things rather than using the rope or belt to throw the opponent. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Carl W" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:22:50 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Problems in the Dojang >From: "Arthur Lee" >Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:33:46 -0500 >Subject: the_dojang: problems in the dojang > >Hey all, > >First... sorry for the long email > >My club seems to be having a problem. Our club is a legally registered society and thus required to have a President, Vice-President, Treasurer, etc as well as financial reports, meeting minutes, annual elections, etc. As in your case, this could cause problems of "power" and "control" between the club members (who, in a sense, actually "own" the club) and the instructors, especally the head instructor (who has worked very hard to make the club what it is). While the present membership, executive, and instructors get along very well, we have forseen the possibility of that changing as the people change. The way we have hopefully gotten around any potential conflicts, is by writing into our constition and by-laws a "Chief Instructor" position. The Chief Instructor is appointed for life (but can resign), and has a well-defined job description for that position. Essentially, the Chief Instructor is responsible for everything and anything that happens within the dojang (from accepting students to class structure to hiring\supervising instructors to testing requirements to promotion ). As well the Chief Instructor is our official liaison and representative to all other TKD and MA organizations. The Club Executive is responsible for administrative tasks and duties, accounting, marketing, social events, newsletter, etc. While the constitution and by-laws can be changed at an Annual or Special General Meeting, we have given the Chief Instructor ownership of the club name, logo, and trademarks. In this way, if there should be a conflict, and the constitution and bylaws get changed, and our Chief Instructor wants\is forced to leave, he takes the club name, and reputation, with him. The Chief Instructor also controls a budget which is comprised of a percentage of student fees so he can't be cut off at those knees. While there doesn't seem to be a lot of protection in here for the typical club member, he\she can always go find a club that is more amenable to him\her without having lost much. On the other hand, its much more dificult to ask the person who has put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into the club to just walk away. Essentally, it's the Chief Instructor's club, 'de facto' and 'de jure'. Because of the possibly transient nature of your leadership, this struture may not work for you. Good luck! Taekwon Carl _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:35:06 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Problems & winning/losing >From: "Arthur Lee" >Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:33:46 -0500 >Subject: the_dojang: problems in the dojang >My question to you who read this, is what can we do about this situation??? >The student is a very stubborn one that believes that the part of the form >that the student is doing wrong was actually taught by my instructor, but >what is more likely the case is that the student forgot what to do, made up >a new maneuver, and believes that the instructor taught it. What my >instructor plans on doing for now is to get a 1st Gup belt, and replace the >student's belt with it. Then tell the student that there is nothing that the >student can learn from the instructor anymore. > >Now there are many other factors to this equation that I could not possibly >explain in one email, since this problem has been in the making for 3 years >(the student was fine for the first year, in the second year, my instructor >did not attend the class, and let the student teach the class, and in the >third year... well that's this year...), it is difficult to explain it all >at once. > >If ANY of you have any suggestions or even experiences that are akin to what >we have... we would appreciate it very much. My instructor should be >joining the list shortly, if not already... > >Arthur Lee >2nd Dan TKD >1st Gup > >P.S. Boy, typing without using gender specfic words is hard... or at least >long and tedious 8) - --response------> I'd say you're in a major pickle. Were I in a similar situation I would hold my breathe, and if I were receiving decent instruction, continue to attend classes and hope that upon graduation from the university the troubling individual will move and eliminate your headache, painlessly and without a big fuss. I guess the other tack would be to mastermind a coup and attempt to take over the "power" positions in the club. The first approach would be the less inflammatory of the 2, provided the offending student will be leaving the school in the near future. Better to focus on training than on politics in ANY circumstance. > >From: "Gecko K. Martial Arts" >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:31:34 >Subject: the_dojang: tournaments the bad and the inspiration > >Well I am home from another open tournament, the more I go to the more I >loose my "taste" for them. At this one there were 2 Jr's competing in the >new "modified Kick boxing" division that were knocked out and two >instructors got into a brawl on the side lines also resulting in a knock >out, a young girl got knocked clear off her feet via her opponents punch to >the body in point sparring and several more "un-acceptable injuries :( >(and people bug me saying that I should stop competing in breaking because >it is too dangerous, the boards&bricks have never knocked me out) >Continued Success, >Sandy > - --response-->when the focus of any sport is winning, such things will happen. We tend to instill the "win at any costs" mentality in our kids from day one.. (little league, soccer, chess club, etc. etc., ad nauseum). The martial arts should be the exact opposite, because the common belief is that we are comparing ourselves only to ourselves and advancement is based on personal improvement, not "winning". Sadly, this is not the case in many martial "arts". Although I am WTF practitioner, I am not a lover of the competitive atmosphere that pervades the tournaments. Fortunately my instructors are not tournament "nuts" and give their students traditional TKD instruction with value in the "real" world. Tournaments should be fun, entertaining events that allow for the building of camaraderie and skills. They should NOT be a venue for overeager instructors or parents to show off their unsportsmanlike conduct. On a lighter note and in response to the "mole" (KukkiTaekwondo-- Really more like Kooky-TKD) that Mr. Terry mentioned. I made an attempt to join the list this gentleman moderates (or tyrannizes) and was greeted by the oddest, most disrespectful string of emails imaginable. Seems that anyone who posts on Mr. Terry's Digest is unwelcome on "kooky-dude's" list. I was left with a rather horrid taste in my mouth. What bothers me most is I am sure there are many well informed, quality martial artists on that other list, and their voices will never reach my ears because this fellow has a canker sore on his rear due to things I know (or care) nothing about..... I guess the world is populated with odd beings and strange cats, but this cat is the oddest of all....If I were the devious type I would set up a strange email account somewhere, take on a false name, and promote myself as some sort of super supreme grandmaster-poobah (hold the cheese) and act out my delusions of grandeur on a broad scope. As it is, I will continue to read each Dojang Digest eagerly and with glee! Respectfully (except for the last paragraph), Dave Weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:55:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Canete and Arnis/Escrima Ray T noted: Response: Yes, the family in Cebu is familiar with him and his followers.In 1995 I was at my brother in laws house and he brought over several Arnis/Esrima champions. They provided a demonstration right at the house, then we all had a nice meal. During that time frame I was living in Korea and studying Kuk Sool Won. I had a limited interest in Arnis/Escrima. I now realize what a golden opportunity that was to learn another art. My wife's brother in law comes from a well known family in Cebu. The father was a judge. One brother is now a well known lawyer and another brother owns several hotels/businesses. Think it is time to learn more about Arnis/Esrima having that family connection present. Ray, also learned more about the art from your other well run list. McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:30:49 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Problems in the dojang In response to the following... >------------------------------ From: "Arthur Lee" Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 >22:33:46 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: problems in the dojang >My club seems to be having a problem. Let me explain the situation a bit ***very LARGE snip*** :) >If ANY of you have any suggestions or even experiences that are akin to >what we have... we would appreciate it very much. My instructor should be >joining the list shortly, if not already... > >Arthur Lee 2nd Dan TKD 1st Gup Mr. Lee, You definitely have a problem. When one of the senior members of a school has an attitude problem it can be detrimental to the school and potentially to everyone in it. This can also affect the public perception of your school if that attitude problem escapes the dojang walls. I am currently dealing with a situation vaguely similar to this in my own school. One of my senior students, a recommended black belt, has recently shown a huge amount of disrespect to me and the other black belts in our school. This student was planning on testing for 1st dan in January. In my situation, I am planning on telling this person (tonight, in fact) that they are not testing because in our school, we study taekwondo (and hapkido) as more than physical ways. The internal part of our training, which encompasses courtesy, respect, humility and self-control among other things, is the primary goal of our training in our school. We do not have the additional wrinkle of having this person in a position of administrative authority, but the basic problem is still the same. Your senior instructor needs to determine what is important in his school and go from there. If this behavior is something that can be tolerated, then tolerate it. However, it appears that in your school, as in mine, that this behavior will not be tolerated and something needs to be done. In my particular situation, I do not feel that this behavior requires removing this person from our school. (On a side note, I have a feeling he will remove himself, but that may not matter in our discussion here.) Even if this problem warrants removal, it may not be that easy to remove this person since they are the president. However, just because this person in your club is in a position of administrative power does not give him the right to be given preferential treatment in matters of rank. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that absolutely the worst case scenario would be that he could somehow vote out your instructor as the main instructor. But in that case, that instructor and all the students can just create another group to continue your practice. Maybe I am naive about how that whole situation works, but it seems like even the worst possible turn of events would not be that bad. If you would like to pursue this particular discussion further, please feel free to email me directly. shaun_fortune@hotmail.com I am certain that you will get a lot of good feedback from the members of this list. There is a LOT of knowledge and wisdom here and I am happy to be a part of it. By the way, if any of you have comments on my situation, feel free to throw your two cents in. IMHO, Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: RumNCoke220@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:41:07 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #733 You can order books and videos on Kuk Sool from the World Kuk Sool Association Headquarters webpage at: worldkuksoolassoc.com John ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:19:11 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #735 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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