From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #737 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 28 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 737 In this issue: the_dojang: Two Tigers in the Den the_dojang: James R. West the_dojang: Re: 10th Dans the_dojang: Problem in Newton the_dojang: Two Tigers Two the_dojang: The military in Korean history the_dojang: Re: Naperville, Illinois=Dojangs the_dojang: Re: Sore (not Gore) topic --but necessary the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #735 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #735 the_dojang: Naperville Dojangs the_dojang: Master Kim and OMAC the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #736 the_dojang: Re: Looking for Do-Jangs the_dojang: please drop it ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "hununpa" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:01:56 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Two Tigers in the Den Arthur wrote: <> I see a couple of issues and so I will offer my $0.02 worth and some cautions as a fellow list member. 1. I take it from your post that you are currently a gup or student in the club, and also not an officer. This being the case I would address the issue of inappropriate behavior with the instructor, or another officer. If it is discussed with the president, whoever does the talking should try to focus on the behavior that needs to change and be as impersonal as possible. 2. I believe discipline is progressive and helps the offender to be able to respond (response-able). So I would give this individual some opportunities to change the behavior with progressively unpleasant consequences for failure to change such behavior. 3. A few masters have told me "there can only be one tiger in the den." It seems like your club has two tigers. If that is the case, you do not want to be in the middle when unproductive conflict begins. If the two can synergize their efforts you will probably have a dojang with a lot of varied quality instruction. 4. Finally a caution for the list. Remember as a school head you and your school will be judged by the quality of your Dan students (mutants if you will). Therefore, evaluate each Dan promotion as if this student will be the only student to represent your dojang as a Dan member. Do you find that acceptable? I have seen much harm caused by the issuance of "probationary" Dan status, issuance of a belt without the certificate, or the certificate and "half a belt." I personally do not award "probationary" rank. I have, however, had several pre-exam conferences in which students were advised to wait. Although it may be your right to void or rescind a Dan promotion, it is much easier IMVHO for all involved to "wait and see." There is nothing positive about drumming someone out (demotion, clipping the wings, etc.). I'm sure there are other opinions out there, and I hope everyone is doing what works for them :-) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD www.geocities.com/mojakwan/ ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:04:44 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: James R. West Sorry, wrong J. R. West. I was almost 15 before I found out what "J. R." stood for and it's not "James". And no-one has ever called me by a first name other than J.R. J. R. West www.hapkido.com Subject: the_dojang: James R. West / Judo Book > >I recently became aware of a book titled "The Judo Textbook in Practical >Application" co-authored by James R. West. Is this the same Hapkido Master >James R. West of this forum? ------------------------------ From: Daremo and Kitsune Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:04:28 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: 10th Dans >From: Ray Terry >Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:54:40 PST >Subject: the_dojang: 10th Dan > > > My understanding of this was that there was only ONE 10th Dan in a > system... > >In Judo, the art that started the whole dan/kyu(gup) thing, there are a >couple dozen or more 10th Dans. > > > I haven't heard any Song Moo Kwan members claiming anyone other than > > Byung Jick Ro as a 10th Dan or, for that matter, many claiming to be > > 9th Dans in Song Moo Kwan. > >Do you know if GM Ro is a Kukkiwon/WTF 10th Dan? > >Ray Terry >raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Ray, I don't think that he is. I believe that his rank would be the Song Moo Kwan rank/title. My viewpoint was helped along by hearing several people refering to him as "Supreme Grandmaster." I can accept that title in regard to Song Moo Kwan but I don't think that HE would claim it over TKD in general, although I have the feeling that that is what some try to claim for him. Since he never limited his people to continue their development, I don't think that he is egotistical enough to try and claim supremecy over TKD. Robert Frankovich 4th Dan AAU Taekwondo 4th Dan Song Moo Kwan Taekwondo 2nd Dan Seidokan Aikido www.tigerconsulting.org "There's more to balance than not falling over." Michael Angier ------------------------------ From: "Rebel Resources" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:08:06 -0900 Subject: the_dojang: Problem in Newton Shaun: <>> Shaun, is this someone I met during my visit? Do I need to come down there again and use him as a demonstrator? ; ) What was this joker doing to show such disrespect? Good luck with your black-belt-wannabe! - - William Hayes ------------------------------ From: "hununpa" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:27:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Two Tigers Two Apologies to the list for re-posting, but after reading the latest issue of DD, I would have to agree with some things that came out. Arthur, Your club should have by-laws, and a well defined role for the Chief instructor and CEO/President position. I'm surprised a university would allow a club to opperate without them, so I'm going to assume you have them. If they are unclear on these roles then Master Sims is quite correct. "Without a fundamental position against which to orient the students, one students' agenda, whether healthy or not, was just about as valid as another students'." This is unfortunate, but a fact in this case. and "Unless grades have certification, there is no rank. No honorary belts, freebies, or temps. Your instructor is responsible for establishing the necessary venues for testing and certification. " This authority needs to be clearly spelled out in the by-laws. Once things like specific written minimum standards, or standards by reference based on affiliation with a particular certifying authority are decided, they to (or by reference) should be included in the by-laws. Bravo Carl! "While there doesn't seem to be a lot of protection in here for the typical club member, he\she can always go find a club that is more amenable to him\her without having lost much. On the other hand, its much more dificult to ask the person who has put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into the club to just walk away. Essentally, it's the Chief Instructor's club, 'de facto' and 'de jure'." I would see if Carl can email you their by-laws as a "go-by", or for constructive compairison to your existing by-laws (if any). I will remain hopeful, that with some challenging work by all the members, you will have a fine dojang for many years to come. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:19:50 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: The military in Korean history Dear Bruce, You wrote in a recent digest: >> Thanks for taking the time to write back. Sometimes I think that the Korean military tradition is something like that quandry about whether the water glass is half empty or half full. I do note that your response seems to be in line with what one might call the "generally accepted" historical line. << Well if you don't follow the academically approved historical line what do you follow? >> The Korean military tradition as a cohesive curriculum traces its roots back to the Three Kingdoms Period. I hope you will accept my apology if I do not cite each and every resource however, not only the well known Shilla kingdom with its Hwa Rang warriors but Paekche and Koryugo as well had established military institutions which not only taught martial skills but codes of conduct as well. << This is unproved, though probably true. It should be pointed out that Paekche and Koryugo both fell to Shilla and their techniques have been lost in the mists of time. The Hwarang 'warriors' may have possibly been organised as a professional military in the sense we understand but the sources are not clear. They obviously had some military role during the period when Shilla began to become a power. However it needs to be strongly stated that the references also make it clear that their function was as much religious, if not more so. The 'codes of conduct' that come from the monk Wonhyo are more Confucian in tone than being about military honour or Buddhist philosophy. You talk about following the historical line, but it moves. During the 1970s when the general Park Chung-hee was President the Hwarang were talked up as great military leaders and martial practitioners. Within the Korean historical discourse some still hold this position. It is the more recent interest to look at the sources anew and research the other sides of the Hwarang. >> Were these arts original to the Korean people? To some degree yes and some degree no. The roots of H2H combat such as we know them today had no small foundation in the wrestling arts of Northeastern Asia and survive to some extent in the modern Ssierum of today. However, certainly the influx of Chinese culture beginning in the 3rd century added what we call now Chin Na techniques, additional striking and kicking techniques, various Chinese weapons and Order of Battle all of which were given that unique Korean "spin" by the Korean people. We also must not discount the various influences back and forth across the Sea of Japan. << The Chinese military influence on Korea may be less in fighting terms than the cultural terms, but organisational and fighting philosophies (with swords, spears, etc) was still dominant. The Chinese have been in Korea several times. The Han had a commandary near Pyongyang (NK claims the remains are a Japanese conspiracy:- the site was discovered during the Imperial period) but it was an occupation force and it is unclear if the locals were taught anything. The first positive influence possibly happened when the Tang helped Shilla defeat Paekche and Koryugo, but soon afterwards the Tang were thrown out by Shilla. As Chinese culture increasingly influenced Shilla, Shilla may have adopted Chinese military practises as well, but there is no evidence either way. The next time China enters the picture is when the Mongols enter the picture. Their destructive occupation left many marks and military organisation was probably one of them. The Koryo kingdom, then under control of a military strong man, eventually gave in and joined the Mongol world. Sino-Mongol practises were probably adopted during the aborted invasion of Japan. The Chinese returned at the request of Choson when the Japanese invaded in 1592. The Chinese refused to allow Choson access to Ch'i Chi-kuang's Chi-hsiao hsin-shu (New Text of Practical Tactics, 1560). The Choson military obtained this manual from other sources but it appears that the Chinese and Choson armies operated somewhat independently. Nonetheless during the 8-odd years of war, the Choson military must have adopted many of the practises of the Chinese military. It is unclear what influences Japanese military systems had on Korea. The Japanese were despised by the Koreans. Presumably there were fishing contacts but official contacts were extremely limited until the final Tokugawa shogunate really. It is during this period when an official went to Japan and learned some Japanese styles. This is recorded in the Muyetobot'ongji but questions remain. The most important being what does 'learned' mean. Does it mean learn the martial art or learn about the arts through books? >> I think what you may be saying is that there is no patri-linear tradition of MA in Korea such as the Japanese established with the Ryu-ha system and you are absolutely right. The simile' I like to use with my students is that in the Korean tradition, martial art was a function of the central government and as such training could be characterized as the equivelent of our modern Basic Training and AIT. << Correct. And considering the long periods of peace between international wars, why should Koreans retain martial skills? It is very important to recognise that the Muyetobot'ongji is a government document and that the peasantry were conscripted into the military usually against their will. >> The COMPREHENSIVE ILLUSTRATED MANUAL OF MARTIAL ARTS written by Lee in 1790 reports to draw on MA treatise dated as early as 1595. In its writing its draws on over 200 various books, treatises and manuals authored by a variety of sources and organized by Lee and Park into a single manual which could be used by the Yi Dynasty to train its military. << I have not counted the references myself so can not comment on the 200 books you cite. I will say this though. The Muyetobot'ongji mainly quotes from Mao Yüan-i's Wu-pei chih (Treatise on Military Preparedness, 1621. Note this is not the same Wu-pei chih that McCarthy recently translated) and, by extension the Chi-hsiao hsin-shu. There is a list of books that the student should read, but they are mostly standard Confucian texts and nothing to do with military techniques. The same caveat unfortunately holds for many of the other books mentioned in the Muyetobot'ongji. Since the books are lost it is impossible to know whether they were try martial arts manuals or just discussions on the topic, or mention military matters in passing. >> I am not sure that your comment about Korea being "at peace" with little need of military prowess is entirely accurate. While it is probably true that Korea had little need of a military as a arm of international policy, there was a great need for internal policing. Following the two Manchu invasions there were any number of revolts by the peasantry including one that nearly toppled the government. In addition there were persecutions of << Neither the 'police' nor the peasants needed martial arts. The police just need spears and forks to control the peasants. The peasants normally revolted because they were starving (or unwashed :-). >> both the Catholic and Protestant populations as well as an Isolationist policy that precipitated confrontations with both the US and France in their turn. In this manner, while military occupations and personnel were given short shrift by the essentially Confucian bureaucracy, they were also seen as something or a necessary evil. To tell you the truth, Andrew, I suspect that it was this "love/hate" relationship between the government and its military << This is particularly true and Chinese discussions go into this in great depth because the founding Emperor was always a military man. Fairbanks discusses this at some length. The Confucian bureaucrats made sure that the military ranks could not rise far up the bureaucratic ladder after a Koryo king was usurped by a general, and civilians always controlled the military command thereafter. As with other areas of political policy, military philosophy became entangled in Confucian-political ideology and due to the long periods of peace such theorising was not dislodged by the experience of war (as happened in many other countries). The Catholics arrived in Korea from the 18th century but were pretty successfully suppressed by the government. The Protestants did not arrive until the late 19th century. The Catholics came via China and spoke to the yangban, while the Protestants spoke to the peasantry. >> that has created the very conflicted martial tradition we have today with its very conflicted and contradictory history. IMHO where I think we practitioners of the Korean arts here in the US have the greatest problem is that much of our information comes through MA authorities who have a vested interest in presenting history as it supports their particular position or organization. << This is true. The older generation MAists are also trying to react to the Japanese taunt that 'Korea is weak and always will be.' Regards, Andrew ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 03:58:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Naperville, Illinois=Dojangs Tink asked: Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:05:31 -0600Subject: the_dojang: Looking for Do-Jangs Still looking for a Do-Jang in Naperville, Illinois...can anyone out there give me some names, please?The One and Only...Tink> Response: Naperville, Illinois is a stone's throw from Great Lakes Naval Base and North Chicago, Illinois. I believe there is an excellent resource on this list, re: Mr. Sims who is in North Chicago. Naperville and Waukegan (home of Jack Benny) have several schools. I was stationed at Great "Mistakes" Illinois many years ago. Winters are terrible there. McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 04:24:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Sore (not Gore) topic --but necessary - -Mr. Weller aptly noted: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 07:48:48 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #735 Dear Mr. Cyrus: Thank you for your contribution. I am sorry that it has taken me so long to respond but I wanted to check my source before I stuck my foot firmly in my mouth. From what I have been able to determine the Hojo-jitsu techniques that you are referring to in Daito-ryu quite probably may be instructor-specific. By that I mean that I am finding that a number of weapons attributed to Daito-ryu were actually practiced at the behest of a particular individual or as the result of specific circumstances. The single exception to this appears to be the sword work attributed directly to OS Takeda. Otherwise I have been unable to identify a consistent curriculum across all branches of Daito-ryu or its derivations such as the many styles of Aikido. On the other hand, with the melding of Daito-ryu with the indigenous Martial traditions of the Korean culture, there is a range albeit inconsistent of weapons and their application. The point that I am at in my research concerning the rope techniques has less to do with using a cord or belt for throwing than for binding or restraining a partner following subduing them. The current tact that I am taking to review those single-hand, or "no-hand" pins found in, say, Yanagi-ryu (which has a Hojo-jitsu tradition) which most closely approximate Hapkido techniques. Given the history of Korean Martial tradition is more of a function of internal rather than external policy I am fairly certain there is a rich tradition of this sort of technique even if it has fallen to neglect for the time being. Your help would be appreciated. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 07:54:09 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #735 "I have never heard that Daito Ryu included rope tying techniques in its curriculum, but there are several other Japanese arts that do. Hojo Jutsu (binding art) is part of both Takenouchi Ryu and Itatsu Ryu. Both of these arts are of the Koryu Bujutsu variety, i.e., they are part of Japan's bugei or martial arts that were developed by Samurai. According to Donn Draeger, Hojo Jutsu was developed because at times a Samurai would not want to kill a defeated opponent but instead keep them prisoner. They could use their sageo (the cord attached to their odachi scabbard) as a means of binding their opponent." Dear Chris: Thanks for your insight. I have read S Draegers' material but he did not cite reference material. Have you been able to pursue this at all? It's the same for both the Takenouchi-ryu and Itatsu-ryu (a new one to me). Have you found a dependable resource for either of these styles and their Hojo-jitsu tradition? BUGEI TRADING CO. offers either books or videos on Hojo-jitsu of the Yanagi-ryu tradition from S Don Angier. Perhaps we can compare notes, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 06:02:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Naperville Dojangs If you are looking for strictly a Hapkido dojang then you will want to go to American Academy of Martial Arts in Westmont (about 15 minutes from Naperville) on Cass Ave. The hkd instructor is Mst. Randy Stigall. He is a 5th degree (kido-hae certified). Hardcore class all the way. If you like good workouts, this is the place for you. He is on the mat with you training hard. I believe GM Ian Cyrus can vouch for him as well There is also World Martial Arts Institute on Ogden Avenue in Naperville. They teach taekwondo, kuk-sool hapkido and Kumdo. All seperate classes. The instructor there is GM Park, Kyoung-ho 9th degree (certified through WTF in) and VP of the Hwa-rang Kumdo Asso. A great guy and one of the few Koreans who works out on the mat with you. Email me privately and I will give you my phone number if you would like more information. I am from the Lisle area so I know pretty much most of the local schools. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 06:04:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Master Kim and OMAC Master Kim's school is located in the Buffalo Grove/Arlington Hts area (about a 30-45 minute drive from Naperville depending on traffic). My ex-boss's son takes lessons from him. From what I understand, he is a very nice person. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:13:58 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #736 Dear Patrick: I hope that I did not offend. My intention was not to single out BLACK BELT magazine as a questionable source, or to cast aspersions on their editorial staff. Rather, the point I was making to Andrew was that we are required, should we desire a more accurate understanding of the Korean Martial traditions to delve deeper than a cursory presentation of material. May I also say that I have identified an attitude on the part of the BLACK BELT magazine staff members with whom I have spoken in the last year to provide a more well-rounded presentation of material, even where there may not be the depth possible given their targeted audience, or perhaps some publishing limits of which I am not aware. I would certainly welcome the opportunity to contribute some of the results of my research if the editorial staff felt that my material would be consistent with their publishing goals. Thanks for taking time, Patrick. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Jim Griffin" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:19:19 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Looking for Do-Jangs Tink - here is the reply I received from GM Kim... From: "Ho B. Kim" To: Jim Griffin Subject: Re: Martial artist seeking a school in your area... Dear Jim, The Naperville OMAC holds classes at a Mosque located at 450 Oleson, Naperville. Instructor is Attiya Mobin-Uddin (OMAC black belt 2nd dan from OMAC Columbus). The classes are for women only. Recently, Ilke Schwarz (a black belt from Germany - Master Sunny Graff's student) joined the OMAC Naperville and she has been assisting Attiya in teaching. I guess that Kim Farral is a woman, then she can join the class. Best way is to contact Instructor Attiya (630-236-1986) and get further information on joining the class. If I can be any help, please let me know. I preside promotion tests at the Naperville OMAC. << From: "Farral, Kim G" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:05:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Looking for Do-Jangs Still looking for a Do-Jang in Naperville, Illinois...can anyone out there give me some names, please? The One and Only... Tink >> - ---===--- Jim Griffin www.wuma.com sitebuilder.liveuniverse.com/jgriffin/ _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 6:56:57 PST Subject: the_dojang: please drop it Ok, folks. Time to drop the comments about Mr. 'KukkiTaekwondo'. We need to make sure folks know the truth, but no need to continue the thread. Thanks. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #737 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.