From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #738 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 28 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 738 In this issue: the_dojang: ITF question Re: the_dojang: ITF question the_dojang: Belt or rope tying the_dojang: A mistake in the name for the HKD dojang in Westmont the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #737 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #737 the_dojang: Re: : Problem in Newton the_dojang: "Bait and Switch" the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #737 the_dojang: Hojo Jutsu, cont. the_dojang: "New" Hapkido master? the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "tkdflyer" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 07:33:54 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: ITF question I am a new member on this list. I have read some back issues. I think there are some people on this list that know the history of taekwondo. I hope you can help me. On another list there has been discussion about the son of Choi Hong Hi. I think his name is Choi Jung Wa. Nobody has really said what he did but he was in jail for a while. Does anybody know anything about this? What did he do? When did it happen? How long was he in jail for? Thanks in advance Ben _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 7:26:22 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: ITF question > On another list there has been discussion about the son of Choi Hong Hi. I > think his name is Choi Jung Wa. Nobody has really said what he did but he > was in jail for a while. Does anybody know anything about this? What did he > do? When did it happen? How long was he in jail for? From a back issue... - --------------------------------------------------------------------- I found this statement from the knowledgeable Kim Sol of the USTU: "In 1984, his son, ITF 6th Dan, Choi Joon Hwa [now ITF General Secretary] was arrested for conspiracy to assassinate South Korean political figures, convicted, and sentenced to prison." He goes on to stating that he was released in 1990. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: todd miller Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:49:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Belt or rope tying >From what I have learned the belt or rope tying tech. are still taught but more so in the sword arts. In my training in Chung Suk Guhapdo I have learned many tying or wraping tech. with the segeo but not one of them involves throwing an opponent. I think that alot of the belt tech. that have worked there way into Hapkido look very nice but that is where they end. On the battle field one would never take there belt off for there sword or scabard would fall off. Todd Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc. > Thank you for your contribution. I am sorry that it has taken me so long to > respond but I wanted to check my source before I stuck my foot firmly in my > mouth. > > >From what I have been able to determine the Hojo-jitsu techniques that you > are referring to in Daito-ryu quite probably may be instructor-specific. By > that I mean that I am finding that a number of weapons attributed to > Daito-ryu were actually practiced at the behest of a particular individual > or as the result of specific circumstances. The single exception to this > appears to be the sword work attributed directly to OS Takeda. Otherwise I > have been unable to identify a consistent curriculum across all branches of > Daito-ryu or its derivations such as the many styles of Aikido. On the other > hand, with the melding of Daito-ryu with the indigenous Martial traditions > of the Korean culture, there is a range albeit inconsistent of weapons and > their application. The point that I am at in my research concerning the rope > techniques has less to do with using a cord or belt for throwing than for > binding or restraining a partner following subduing them. The current tact > that I am taking to review those single-hand, or "no-hand" pins found in, > say, Yanagi-ryu (which has a Hojo-jitsu tradition) which most closely > approximate Hapkido techniques. Given the history of Korean Martial > tradition is more of a function of internal rather than external policy I am > fairly certain there is a rich tradition of this sort of technique even if > it has fallen to neglect for the time being. Your help would be appreciated. > > Best Wishes, > Bruce W Sims > www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 07:54:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: A mistake in the name for the HKD dojang in Westmont "If you are looking for strictly a Hapkido dojang then you will want to go to American Academy of Martial Arts..." I have to apologize. The name of this dojang is American Martial Arts Academy. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:41:14 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #737 Dear Andrew: Thanks for your response. I enjoy these dialogues very much. I am, however, having a hard time following the logic of your position. Perhaps if you could explain a bit about what it is, perhaps, that you have come to believe about the Korean Martial tradition I could provide a little better quality contribution from my side. In the meantime, let me help in this way, yes? I did not say that I don't follow the "academically approved historical line". What I said was that "your response seems to follow the generally accepted historical line." Now, unless I miss my guess, what this could do is put me in a position to make a statement, cite references to support those statements and help to correct some of the conclusions you have drawn. My best guess is that this would be process I would have to do while you are resisting my information or seeking to discredit it. I have to tell you, Andrew, that's a monumental task and probably a very tedious one for people who share this list with us. I will say, that I think one of the fundamental differences in our approach is that rather than as a series of discrete events, I see the development of the Korean culture more as a gradual mixing of various tints into a paint medium of a specific viscosity and tincture. In this way, nothing is ever actually lost. Obscured perhaps, or obfuscated but never lost. It is apparent from your responses that you have considerable insight into Korean history. Most people I know with this level of expertise usually apply it in such a way as to support, revivify, reconstitute, reconstruct, and/or affirm Korean Martial traditions. Put another way, unless I am reading your responses incorrectly, you seem to be invested in identifying what the Korean Martial tradition is not rather than what it is. Have I misunderstood? This would be a very curious position to hold for a person who has subscribed to a Net dedicated to Korean Martial tradition, ne? I wanted to share one other point, though, before I close. Sometime earlier this year I had occasion to participate in a Net whose sole purpose, apparently, was to contend one participant against another ad nauseum. Rather than a healthy exchange of information and ideas, it was a very painful and toxic experience and most probably not one that I would wish to revisit. I wouldn't mind continuing this dialogue but I would need to know that it would be a cooperative effort among the Net participants (read also you and I) to secure a sound founding in Korean culture. Does this sound like something you would be interested in? Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:59:08 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #737 Dear McD: Thank you very much for mentioning my classes on the Net. In fairness to Tink, however I think I should share that the "stone" that you would be throwing to hit one of my classes from Naperville would probably need to be propelled by a charge from a 175.mm Howitzer. My wife makes the drive to Lisle, Ill (a neighboring town of Naperville) in about an hour and 15 min. each morning on I 94 (AKA "Valley of the Shadow of Death") from up here in the Waukegan area. We would be glad for the visit, but it may become trying on a regular basis. May I share with you that I have participated in M Gedo Changs classes some time back and found them informative if somewhat expensive (a relative term). Perhaps another option might be a trip down the road west to Aurora, Illinois. M Ed Perdomo has run a very fine Hapkido school for a number of years in Aurora. Unfortuantely I am not sure of his current affiliation as I write this, however, Ed has an extraordinary teaching ability which, of itself, would justify a visit. If this is of help perhaps it is also worth mentioning that the Elgin/Carol Stream area north west of Naperville also has three fine schools which include a more traditional school (M. Ma), an ICHA school as well as a school which is something of a hybrid and whose instructors' name alludes me right now. Thanks and Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:51:43 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: : Problem in Newton In a message dated 11/28/2000 6:34:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << : Problem in Newton >> Could someone send me a copy of this original post, I must have missed it. Is that Newton, MA? I live in Newton MA and if that is the place, I may know some of the folks involved. Jose' ------------------------------ From: Mike_Devich@selinc.com Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:56:47 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: "Bait and Switch" Did anybody see the news article on the New York Fox station about a local MA school using bait and switch tactics. Apparently 50 students won a court decision to have all of their money returned to them. Whether or not the school did this, I don't know, but has any person on this list ever had to goto court over something similar? And if so how did you overcome the negative effects on your school? In general how do we educate our students and fellow practitioners about this kind of possible bad business, without sounding like you are bad mouthing a person or school? How do we as a community overcome the negative effects that this kind of behavior has on MA as a whole? One other note, the owner has several schools in the area. It was found to be a franchise, but not listed as one. He now has to register as a franchise and pay any penalties. How many schools constitutes a franchise? It seems to me that this is the McDojang that people have referred to before. Does this type of school take something away from the martial art(s)? Or does it add to the stability of the arts? McDonald's point of view is that no matter where you go in the world all of their hamburgers will taste the same! These are just some late night thoughts and questions from 2330 last night. take care mmd ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:45:37 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #737 Dear Jeremy: Let me add an "amen" to your comment regard GM Park. The Hwa Rang Kumdo Assn, located in Chicago, has a number of prominent high ranking Korean MA among its membership. GM Park is remarkable for the manner in which he makes himself "approachable" by assn members and readily lends assistance wherever needed. His concern for the growth and well-being of the student is exceeded only by the efforts of M Im the Head Instructor and GM Koo, 8th Dan and Kwang Jang Nim for World Hwa Rang Kumdo Assn. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:23:56 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Hojo Jutsu, cont. >>"I have never heard that Daito Ryu included rope tying techniques in >>its >>curriculum, but there are several other Japanese arts that do. >>Hojo >>Jutsu (binding art) is part of both Takenouchi Ryu and Itatsu >>Ryu. Both >>of these arts are of the Koryu Bujutsu variety, i.e., they >>are part of >>Japan's bugei or martial arts that were developed by >>Samurai. According >>to Donn Draeger, Hojo Jutsu was developed because >>at times a Samurai >>would not want to kill a defeated opponent but >>instead keep them >>prisoner. They could use their sageo (the cord >>attached to their odachi >>scabbard) as a means of binding their >>opponent." > >Dear Chris: >Thanks for your insight. I have read S Draegers' material but he did >not >cite reference material. Have you been able to pursue this at >all? It's >the same for both the Takenouchi-ryu and Itatsu-ryu (a new >one to me). >Have you found a dependable resource for either of these >styles and their >Hojo-jitsu tradition? BUGEI TRADING CO. offers either >books or videos on >Hojo-jitsu of the Yanagi-ryu tradition from S Don >Angier. Perhaps we can >compare notes, >yes? >Best Wishes, >Bruce W Sims >www.midwesthapkido.com Unfortunatley, koryu bujutsu is an area where I have only an armchair's vantage point. There are no classical bujutsu/bugei schools in my area (eastern Ohio) that I am aware of. Pittsburgh is about an hour away, but I have not been able to put much research time in on what is offered there. The best information I have seen on classical Japanese arts is from Koryu Books and "Aikido Journal". The former publishes _Koryu Bujutsu_ and _Sword and Spirit_, vols. 1 and 2 of a series on classical Japanese MA's. Their web site address is www.koryubooks.com. They also have an online discussion board, etc. The later usually has at least an article or two on an older/classical Japanese MA. Daito ryu is a popular topic, I believe they have had articles on Yagyu Shinkage ryu as well. Check out www.aikidojournal.com for their web site. Stanley Pranin runs "Aikido Journal" and he and many of his staff either lived or still reside in Japan studying the MA's. The journal itself is what I would LOVE to see in the Taekwon-Do/Korean MA field. Excellent articles, in-deapth interviews, nice paper quality, beautiful covers, and just a high standard all around. They also publish a host of books and videos, mostly on Aikido but also a good selection on Daito Ryu. I have heard of Angier, but have never seen any videos or read anything by him. Your impressions would be greatly appreciated. Hope this information helps. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ____________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:58:22 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: "New" Hapkido master? Has anyone ever heard of Jang In Mok? Apparently, he was a contemporary of Choi, Young Sul and studied Daito Ryu Aikijutsu with him. According to one source on the internet (http://skyboom.com/hapkido/hist1(1)ofhapkido.htm#P43_17531) Jang In Mok was a doctor of oriental medicine and is still living in Korea )possible Daegu city). I have never before heard of this individual and was just wondering if anyone has heard of him. Thanks. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar _____________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:44:16 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #738 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.