From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #744 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 30 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 744 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Choi Hong Hi`s son the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #742 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #742 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #743 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #743 the_dojang: Korean Treasure #76 the_dojang: Takeda/Choi... the_dojang: Muay Thai and Hapkido the_dojang: GM Jang In Mok... Re: the_dojang: GM Jang In Mok... the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. 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To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Piotr Bernat Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:08:11 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Choi Hong Hi`s son Hello, here`s the info which was published in Tae Kwon Do Times back in 1991 (July issue): - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- SON OF ITF FOUNDER CONVICTED IN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT In March of this year, Choi, Choong Hwa, son of Choi, Hong Hi, President of the International TaeKwon-Do Federation, has been sentenced to a six year prison term by a Canadian court for planning the assassination of South Korean President Chung, Doo Hwan, early in the 1980`s during a State visit to the Philippines. Choi, who is an international master of the ITF, hired two known criminal figures and arranged for them to receive $600,000. from North Korean sources for the assassination of the South Korean President. They were to receive money in Vienna, Austria. The ITF International Headquarters is also located in Vienna. The two Canadian hired-killers later contacted the Canadian authorities and reported the alleged attempt by Choi. Choi fled from Canada before his arrest and resided in Poland. In February of this year he returned to Canada to face charges. He pleaded guilty for the attempted murder of the South Korean President. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hope this helps. Kind regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:14:17 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #742 Dear Mr. Rogers: As I start this response I am thinking of the thread that I and other Hapkido people have been contributing to over on the AIKIDO JOURNAL Net. Its about 7 pages long by now and dedicated to the relationships between Korean Mudo such as Hapkido and the Daito-ryu and Aikido branches of Japanese Budo. There are a lot of very interesting contributions but the reason I draw attention to this is not to spam that particular site, but rather to underscore the importance of pursuing this line of our heritage. In fact, I suspect that it is this one point that join Andrew and I in our discussion when all is said and done. Let me state for the record, and as my own personal opinion, that most probably the single greatest shame to the Korean arts has been, and is, the propensity for people in positions of influence to skew information to support their personal agendas. Admittedly, it is difficult to sort out fact from confabulation in much of Korean history. However, not to make an effort to arrive at some accurate representation of the facts leaves an academic vacuum which individuals exploit to further their own organizational ends. Even as I write this there are still notable individuals who claim patri-linear heritage back to the Hwa Rang warriors so to authenticate their art or organization. There are still TKD personalities who claim TKD (sic) was an integral part of Hwa Rang training. There are still modern personalities who believe that any conglomeration of technique whiplashed together from disparate arts is an accurate representation of Korean tradition. All of these claims are easily debunked. However, we must also take care not to toss the baby with the bath water, yes? Korean history is also rich with Martial tradition in the likes of Admiral Yi, and legends such as General P'un Il and his son. As practitioners of Korean arts, we are the inheritors of these traditions. In the US, not long after its founding, citizens hungry for the heritage of old world countries made up stories about the new country (one best known was Washington and the Cherry Tree). In some ways, perhaps some Korean revisionist history falls along these lines. I also know that many practitioners of Korean MA often harbor a hunger for romantic visions of ancient warriors which our more modern culture will never have. So here we have two extremes--- extraordinary history and traditions at one end and extraordinary fantasy and expectations at the other end. I personally believe that the blessings of Koreas' gifts to the west lie somewhere in the middle. I believe that the martial traditions were borne of somewhat ordinary people who did extraordinary things when normal , expected responses would have produced no change at all. I believe that we modern practitioners are hungry to know how these people did what they did if only to find clues in how to resolve the 20th century counterparts to those issues of old. I also believe that as modern practitioners we are duty-bound to provide to the next generation as accurate and authentic a representation of Korean MA heritage as is within our power and abilities. In hand with this, I believe we practitioners in the US have a special responsibility to use our standing and success on the world stage to support this effort to the best of our ability. I want to close by apologizing if what I originally intended as a simple response became something of a diatribe. I am a man of words who admits that I often forget less is more. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:26:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #742 Dear Mr. Rogers: I promise to make this blessedly short. I was wondering if GM Choi, Han Young would accept a call from me to pursue an examination of the line of instruction from GM Jang In Mok. The interest in this matter arises from the point that GM Jang In Moks' standing with the Daito-ryu tradition can possibly be verified by documentation where Gm Choi, Yong Suls' standing historically has had no such support. My intention is not to discredit GM Chois' position in Korean MA history as much as to bring to light the traditions and contributions of other MA personalities before their time with us is done. I understand your comment regarding GM Choi, Han Youngs' issues regarding language and would most probably submit my queries in writing for his convenience. Your guidance in this matter would be sincerely appreciated. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:30:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #743 RE: V 7 #743 Thanks Rudy: I need to give credit where credit is due, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:55:28 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #743 Master West ,is right that is what I was thinking when I made reference to Tae'Kyon being a national Treasure. It was Master Sun, Duk-Ki who was considered the last old time practioner of tae'Kyon and listed as a national Treasure. I just remembered that the article was concerning Tae'Kyon. Sorry for any confusion Thank you for pointing that out sir. Dan Rogers ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:27:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Treasure #76 J.R. West wrote: I think what Master Rogers is thinking of is Master Son Duk-ki, the last old time TaeKyon master who was named "Korean Treasure #76" and who passed away a year or two ago approaching the age of 100 years.. GM Song actually died in 1987. Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: J Thomas Howard Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:02:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Takeda/Choi... J T wrote, replying to my comment: Me: =", I had yet to run into anything resembling actual =proof that GM Choi actually studied with Takeda. =Stories, yes, proof, no." Jeremy: >I doubt you ever will. The only information that has >been consistent in the stories about Dojunim Choi's >history is that he lost his certificates for Daito-ryu >upon his return to Korea. >Now the question is not if he studied formally, or >informally for that matter, with Takeda. The question >is does his system work? He did study something from >someone somewhere. To me, _a_ question is did he indeed study with Takeda, and what form did that study take? Not, however, _the_ question, meaning something all-important. Indeed, it is obvious he studied something while in Japan, and got very good at it. I am really curious as to what exactly it was, and what the extent of it was. > That should be something we can >all agree upon. It seems the most likely answer is >that he did study from Takeda or, at the very least, a >high ranking student of Takeda. Now all the other >fluff that goes with the history, like who named it >Hapkido or did Takeda adopt Choi, is at this point, >irrelavent to the effectiveness of the art. I agree. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in the history of how it came about. I'll note that saying "the most likely answer" unfortunately isn't really true. GM Choi said he studied directly with Takeda for 30 years---yet no one from that household or dojo seems to remember him. To me, currently the most likely answer is "we have no idea, other than that he studied _something_." >So my question to you is do you think Dojunim Choi >knew nothing of martial arts and he just made his art >up? Or is it your opinion that Dojunim never studied >under Takeda, but from someone else? What are the >answers you are looking for when you are seeking >proof. All that is the real truth died with Dojunim >Choi and Dojunim Takeda. It is fairly obvious that GM Choi had indeed become proficient at a martial art while in Japan, and that it was some form of jujutsu. Other than that, I don't know. That doesn't mean I don't have a personal belief, or like to speculate, but in terms of logical proof, that is all I'll say. I'll note that if people from that dojo, and that time, remember GM Choi, we could get some "real truth." Finding a person who practiced with GM Choi while in Japan would be interesting---whether in Takeda's dojo or someone else's. I have a comment about the difference between this topic being interesting, and being _important_, but I'll save it for the next part... ============================================== LAHapkido@aol.com wrote: >It has been said that documents exist carrying the name Tatajuta Yoshida, >within the Dai-Ito Ryu Aikijutsu records and this is the name that was >given to none other than Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul. As Ray has already mentioned, as far as I know none of Choi's Japanese name were found in any Daito-Ryu records. As there _are_ other Koreans listed in the records, this is any interesting omission if Choi did studied with Takeda. > In a number of interviews with >Grandmaster Choi, this point was brought up. When asked if he accompanied >Takeda on demonstrations Grandmaster Choi, stated that he did and went on >to name the others that were with him on a demonstration in Hawaii. I've read that interview also. (There were a number of interesting points in it that could be discussed.) Anyway---of those people who were with him, have any of them been contacted? Are any of them known? Where was the demo done? What was the date? Do we have any information of this from someone in Hawaii? I'll note that what GM Choi said was: "At the time of the Hawaiian tour there were five of us: Takeda Sokaku, myself, Jintaro, Abida, and two others whose names I cannot at this time recall." > I must agree >with Jeremy at this point. Does it matter? Was and is the system that >Grandmaster Choi, shared with so many effective? The only thing that >should matter at this point is your training. There is no room within the >Martial Arts for the my Dog is bigger than your dog mentality. Train to >live and live to train. Indeed. That doesn't mean someone can't be interested in where things came from. Matter of fact, I don't recall having seen any of the "my dog is bigger than your dog" mentality in this discussion yet. (Though it has happened before.) There is a difference between something being interesting, and something being important. I am highly interested in finding out how this all got started. I'd like to have some proof of how and where this began, whereever that happened to be. Now, do I _need_ to know this? Of course not. Where it came from will not alter what the art is now. Finding out (through some bizarre twist of fate) that GM Choi actually was abducted by aliens and taught baritsu along with Sherlock Holmes by Martians wouldn't change the art as I know it now. It might bend my brain a little bit, but it wouldn't change the movements we practice. So it is interesting to me. But not important. If I find proof that GM Choi studied a jujutsu style of lesser importance, will that make a difference to me and the way I practice my art? Nope. Similarly, if I find that Choi was indeed Takeda's primary student, heir to all its techniques and power, will that change anything? Nope, won't make me a better practitioner. But it is something I'm interested in. ======================================================= Ray Terry wrote, re: Choi's Japanese name being in the Daito-Ryu records: >My understanding is that is apparently not the case. Supposedly neither >of CHOI Yong-sul's Japanese names appear in any of Takeda's records, and >of course the family claims to have never met or seen him. CHOI Yong-sul >claimed to have been a servant boy to the Takeda's, yet they claim they >never ever had any servants as they were far too poor to afford that >luxury.??? > >> ... I must agree >> with Jeremy at this point. Does it matter? Was and is the system that >> Grandmaster Choi, shared with so many effective? The only thing that >>should matter at this point is your training. >Agreed. The history stuff is interesting, but (IMHO) what really matters >is how one's training works when the feces is hitting the oscillator. True. Which is why I post here occasionally about things I find interesting, like the Daito-Ryu connection. For things that matter, I generally don't turn to the Internet for practice. :) Thomas - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/Hap.html "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:06:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Muay Thai and Hapkido Buengood asked about distinctions between Muay Thai Kicks and Hapkido/Korean style kicks. I will defer to the Masters on this list to describe Hapkido kicks. Muay Thai is discussed below. Good sources of techniques are found with the Rob Kamen videos available through Panther Productions. Good instruction on ring techniques, bag drills, kicking, elbows, and knees. I like the slow down of techniques followed by drills and actual ring footage. McD... Addendum: It would be interesting to have a match between a Muay Thai kickboxing Champion and a Tae Kwon Do Champion. McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: J Thomas Howard Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:22:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: GM Jang In Mok... LAHapkido@aol.com wrote: >Mr. Howard, >My Instructor trained directly under Jang In Mok, for many years and has >spoke of him often. He has told me over the course of the past 27 years >that Jang In Mok did not have many students and that most of his teaching >was done on a very small scale with only one or two students at a time. >My teacher is Grandmaster Choi, Han Young. He presently resides in El >Paso Tx and can be reached at (915) 751-3884. He speaks English however >he is much more confortable with Korean and I 'm sure that he would be >happy to talk to you about Grandmaster Jang In Mok. You would get a >better explination if you speak Korean. However Grandmaster Choi, can >make himself understood in English you just have to listen close. It >seemed strange to see Jung In Mok name after so long. Good luck with your >quest. I hope that this helps. Indeed it does! Thank you. I appreciate the information. I wonder if GM Choi, Han Young ever heard GM Jang In Mok speak of studying Daito-Ryu along with GM Choi, Yong Sool. Did GM Jang In Mok teach Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu, or teach Hapkido? Did he make a distinction? For example, the interview wherein GM Choi talked about the demonstration in Hawaii was conducted with Jong-Bae Rim, Joseph Sheya, Chinil Chang, and Ken Cross. One of the interesting things Mr. Rim and Mr. Sheya both said later in a different interview (printed in Marc Tedeschi's book) was this: ============== Q: After Yong-Sul Choi came to Korea around 1945, and until the mid 1970s, did he ever speak of adding new techniques to Hapkido; or did you ever see him do this? Rim: No. He only taught what Sokaku Takeda taught him. Sheya: Yong-Sul Choi made a sacred promise to his master, Takeda, that he would keep this art form intact. He promised before God and himself as a man that he would not change the art. He did study Kendo because he liked it. But he didn't call it Hapkido, and he didn't include it in what he taught as Hapkido. It was seperate. As far as he was concerned it was absolutely a complete circle of martial arts [techniques]. He didn't see anywhere to add to it. He saw it as complete. Q: Am I to understand that Choi's system of Hapkido is identical to Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu? That they are the same thing? Sheya: As far as we know, they're the same. He made this point very, very clear back in 1982 when he was here--in fact he was adamant about it--that he never changed it. It was a scared [sic] trust. This was what was upsetting him, because he said, everywhere he went , all these guys were doing Hapkido, but they weren't going his art. [snip part of interview] Q: If the system of Hapkido you practice today is Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu, why not call it what it is--Daito Ryu? Sheya: It's his art form. He was the teacher. For us to call it anything else would be disrespectful to him. ====================== Interesting interview. (For a number of reasons.) But from this, I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has any knowledge about whether or not GM Choi's Hapkido was indeed identical to Daito-Ryu, or if GM Jang In Mok ever said anything about what he taught. Thomas - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/ "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:58:34 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: GM Jang In Mok... > But from this, I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has any knowledge > about whether or not GM Choi's Hapkido was indeed identical to Daito-Ryu, > or if GM Jang In Mok ever said anything about what he taught. From what I understand, from talking to those on the DR side, Hapkido is missing the 'Aiki' part of DR AJJ. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:13:04 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #744 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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