From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #745 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 1 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 745 In this issue: the_dojang: GM Jang In Mok/DR AJJ-Hapkido the_dojang: Re: Empty Hands Can Do the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #743 the_dojang: Hello Mr. Sims the_dojang: Choi Hong Hi autobiography the_dojang: Credit the_dojang: breathing techs the_dojang: [Fwd: Takeda & Choi] the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #744 the_dojang: down ? ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J Thomas Howard Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:28:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: GM Jang In Mok/DR AJJ-Hapkido Ray Terry wrote, replying to me: > > But from this, I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has any knowledge > > about whether or not GM Choi's Hapkido was indeed identical to Daito-Ryu, > > or if GM Jang In Mok ever said anything about what he taught. > > >From what I understand, from talking to those on the DR side, Hapkido > is missing the 'Aiki' part of DR AJJ. :) I've heard that too. Interestingly enough, an aikido teacher here in town practiced Daito-Ryu while he was in Japan, and says that the Hapkido I practice reminds him sharply of Daito. Not Aikido, not jujutsu--- specifically Daito. (Which is interesting, since it isn't as if I'm 1st or 2nd generation Hapkido or even close to it.) He also talks about the years of practice he had to go through to not do a Daito version of techniques when practicing Aikido. In his words, "Daito likes breaking people more---like you guys do." :) I wonder what DR people think about the various styles of Hapkido that strongly emphasize ki? Thomas - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/Hap.html "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: Powrscrol@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:09:45 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Empty Hands Can Do Just wanted to let you know that my "Empty Hands Can Do" webpage is up & (finally) problem-free. Check it out at: http://www.powrscrol.com/ Thanks, Steve W. ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:44:36 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #743 In a message dated 11/30/00 6:38:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Anyone know.?. > > Whatever happened with the infamous Taekwondo Special Investigations > Committee? wasnt that al cole's thing? i havent heard anything about it since i left tkd net ....over a year ago....wow. mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.chajonshim.com ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:39:00 EST Subject: the_dojang: Hello Mr. Sims Bruce you are a man of many words and I admire that, however what is this directed at or towards. I too agree that the link between Korea and Japan in relation to Martial Arts are of the utmost importance. On the other hand I feel that history is only as accurate as the person writing it. All to often it is slanted in the direction of the writer. It is hard to believe that the Japanese or Koreans of old do not harbor ill feelings. You have to keep in mind when discussing Korean Martial Arts and it's history, that the Japanese occupied Korea and all but totally eliminated the Korean way of life. Sir this was not that long ago when speaking in time as an element. The bitterness towards the Japanese can be felt when speaking to many of the older Koreans who lived under Japanese rule, this is where I feel that much of the inaccuracies come into play when trying to fine the truth in much of what is now considered history. In any event thank you for the post and I do enjoy your writing. Train to live and live to train. Dan ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:00:53 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Choi Hong Hi autobiography I just picked up a copy of Choi Hong Hi autobiography. It is pretty intersting reading. I flipped through the 2nd volume and saw some interesting things. (One story is about Choi Jung Hwa assination plot.) I've started reading from the beginning. See how it goes. I guess its been out in Korean for sometime. The English version just arrived in the US in the last few days. Regards Robert Martin PS Thanks for the post on Choi Jung Hwa, Mr. Bernat. ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 01:54:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Credit Master Sims writes: > RE: V 7 #743 > > Thanks Rudy: > > I need to give credit where credit is due, yes? Bruce, I merely mentioned this because IMHO, I believe there are significant differences in the teaching of the two men. Indeed there are differences in the techniques shown in the books. No disrespect intended, just an observation. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 03:46:39 EST Subject: the_dojang: breathing techs Good article on basic Hapkido principles in BB Mag Jan/2001 by Steve Petermann of Jang Mu Hapkido - GM Chong S. Kim's association. The lead photo shows Petermann doing a Dan Jun Breathing exercise - made me wonder.... How many of you incorporate Dan Jun, Ki Gong, or other specialized breathing techniques in your curriculum? Do you teach breathing with a meditation application and/or fighting application? Do you teach it from an Eastern perspective, give a Western interpretation or present the students with both sides of the coin? ds ------------------------------ From: todd miller Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:20:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: [Fwd: Takeda & Choi] I just wanted to add that Doju Nim Choi claimed Takeda as his teacher and serogate father long before Daito Ryu was popular. Choi made no false claims like Hapkido is a 2000 year old strictly Korean martial art either. Choi taught Dai Dong Ryu Yu Sool which later became Hapkido and from what I have been told by one of his early students (before GM JI)Choi gave no illusions about it. We will never no the exact details of the Founder's study in Japan. I think it is important to note that it was 56 years ago and if there are any that are still alive that could have seen or known Choi it would be VERY few. I would like to add that most of the Hapkido that I have seen in Korea and elsewhere is different than the original system Choi taught. The Hapkido that Choi taught and is still taught at the Jungki Kwan in Taegu looks and feels very much like Daito Ryu with the exception that there are more kicking techniques. I feel that it is important for all of us that practice Hapkido to study what we practice and teach because we will either find the answers or lack of in our own Hapkido motions. Let me close with the most important thing is enjoy what you do and grow as a person as you train. Todd M. Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc. ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:04:25 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #744 Dear Ray and Howard and everyone else: Sometimes when I am doing research in this area I feel a little like an orphan wanting information about my family tree. Actually, growing up I had very little information concerning my family until only quite recently. The effect on my life was both settling and affirming. In some ways I think knowing more about the Hapkido heritage can have the same effect for many of us who practice Korean arts. Once again I will invite people to visit the site at www.AIKIDOJOURNAL.com and take time to read though the material that has collected there from several sources. Perhaps this will be of some help in directing our search. There are some hi-points I will share in passing. 1.) To date no documented proof has come to light attesting to GM Chois' participation in training with OS Takeda. OS Takedas teaching protocol was essentially "seminars" or what we might call in the US "intensives" of perhaps a few days to a couple of weeks. OS Takeda was extraordinarily dilligent in keeping his records and while Korean names do appear on the rosters GM Chois' names have not been found. I will add that some tantalizing rumors continue that records do exist with the Daito-ryu Kodokai (a derivation of the original Daito-ryu organization). However the traditionalist/conservative nature of this particular organization precludes an examination of their records by people external to the organization. 2.) To date, no documented proof has come to light attesting to GM Choi as a member of the Takeda household. OS Takeda lived a very itinerant lifestyle both as a teacher of his art as well as the head of his household. Individuals who have accompanied him as deshi (assistants) are accounted for if not identified specifically. Any personality who would have attended to OS Takeda consistently for over 30 years let alone trained in Daito-ryu would have been recalled by someone either in the family or his retinue. More visible situations such as the Hawaiian seminar of the 30-s should have been documented (and photographed) by the Hawaiian press. No material has come to light here either. 3.) I have studied the biomechanics of Hapkido for about 16 years now and have based the publication of my books and the academic teaching system I use on the comparative analysis of those biomechanics. I have also had the honor of being able to correspond with several practitioners of Daito-ryu regarding my research. I will share with our group members first that Daito-ryu is taught in three general levels of sophistication. The least sophisticated is as simple technique (J. Jitsu; K Sool). The next level aiki-ju-jitsu entails a more sophisticated used of unbalancing, leading and otherwise subtle manipulation of the attackers' energy. The third level aikijitsu entails the most sophisiticated level of manipulation and at this writing exceeds my understanding to concisely characterize it. I have put you through this tedious report to state that an examination of the techniques associated with GM Choi and members of his lineage have routinely been along the lines of the first level of technique which is to say the most mechanical technique. This is meant in no way to discount the effectiveness of the techniques only to characterize their level of sophistication. I also want to share that higher levels of sophistication (aiki-ju-jitsu) have been manifest in Korean biomechanic. However, such higher technique has come from individuals such as GM Myung Jae Num (IHF) who had occasion to exchange with Aikido personalities in Japan, GM Lee, Joo Bang (HRA) who reports additional training with Ahm Dosa, and one or two individuals who have reported participation in lineages from contemporaries of GM Choi. 4.) The matter of weapons was raised and I thought that I would mention in passing that only the sword has been consistently taught in conjunction with Daito-ryu. OS Takeda was a gifted swordsman and his art of Ona Itto Ha (sp?) has remained with conservative Daito-ryu elements. There are a number of Daito-ryu and Daito-ryu derivatives that teach various weapons however, and these have been "translated" in the Korean equivalents. The "yawara" stick becomes the soh bong techniques, the tessen or jutte converts to the dan bong techniques, stick or jo to cane, the sword to, well, the sword, the bo to the staff or spear techniques and the tanto jitsu or knife techniques to either knife or short sword techniques. As you have read from my contributions I am still working at identifying the binding techniques and their relationship between the arts. However, just as with Hapkido, no single Daito-ryu derivative school teaches an organized curriculum of weapons except for perhaps OS Mochizukis' Aiki-Budo or OS Saito's style of Aikido. I wanted to close with one other thought and perhaps this is important only in my eyes. As you read my words up above, the conventions of our communication system require me to use declarative statements. Because these e-mail contributions do not allow for inflection in the voice, facial responses, and all the other cues that help qualify communication please take a moment to give me the benefit of the doubt and not read my statements as absolutes. I am a seeker just like everyone else on this Net and my contributions just that - contributions. My prayer is that by each of us throwing a spark on the pile we can build a signal fire by which to guide those who follow us. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 7:35:41 PST Subject: the_dojang: down ? My office and Unix box are being moved today. That may result in the list being down for a few hours. If things go wrong it could be down for a few days. Just FYI... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #745 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.