From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #753 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 6 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 753 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: USTU Kudos the_dojang: Dan Rank the_dojang: On kicking one's spouse in one's sleep the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #752 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #752 the_dojang: Re: Dan Rank the_dojang: Weird things happen. the_dojang: Re: cut kick the_dojang: Re: BB Rank the_dojang: Mr. Hackworth's History the_dojang: Dan Levels the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #751 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #751 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #751 the_dojang: kicking in your sleep the_dojang: mail the_dojang: basic rules of net-life the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Migukyong@aol.com Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:42:25 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: USTU Kudos What does it matter if someone is a memmber of the ustu? The ustu will not allow someone to make a complaint or take any action unless you send in your 100 dollar school fee... not to mention the 35 dollar competitor membership, of which most of those folks will not ever compete, and only, what was it? 4people, will be allowed on the national team? Personally, I prefer Dr. H's approach of going striaght to the source, as opposed to going to the USTU for my information. The USTU is a business, which makes millions of dollars a year, basically selling rank to instructors who claim to have tested their people in accordance to kukkiwon standards. I myself have been to a couple of these schools, which is why I phrased it the way I did. Perhaps they should come up with a regional testing board? Just MHO, Frank ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:03:58 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Dan Rank I feel that too many people see Dan Rank as an ends to a means. Why do you study your Martial Art? Is it for status? Is it to tell your peers what Rank you are? Or is it to keep you healthy and fit. Is it to make your body strong and flexible. Is it to make you live longer to enjoy your life. Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:39:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: On kicking one's spouse in one's sleep Hi Folks, Great new topic! I've done this sort of stuff several times: 1. While fighting an enormous sumo guy in my sleep, I suddenly realized I was stopping my kicks one inch away, so I followed through with my side kick and broke the wooden box at the base of our bed. 2. In another dream battle, I unleashed a flurry of front kicks and flying front kicks upon my opponent. In reality, I front kicked my wife in the butt about six times and pushed her off the bed. 3. With a front kick, I knocked over the fan next to our bed in another episode. 4. The most dangerous one was when I awoke after hammerfisting the bed about an inch away from my wife's head. She was not amused. She hasn't made us get separate beds yet, but another incident like that last one and she just might! Hai ya! Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: "richard hackworth" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:37:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #752 Dear Patrick, Don't get me wrong. I am not the president of the JP fan club or even a card carrying member. If you think that the name combat hapkido sounds bad, try the English translation of some of the other styles of hapkido. They sound just as funny. Anyone dare to start a list of the English translations of KukSoolWon, ChunKi, HanMudo, ChungTong, TuKungMuSool, SinMoo, HanMuKwan, HanKwanDo, JinJungKwan, HwaRangDo. Put these in English and you will see that names get funnier as you go along. That is a list of some of the finest hapkido styles out there. But the names in English would not bring people running to your doors for training. ------------------------------ From: Mary Braud Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:46:20 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #752 >I guess for those whose systems are limited, further dan ranks beyond >1st may seem superfluous, but in a broad based system, you lift >yourself up by each dan rank. >A 1st dan is the equivalent of learning numbers and simple addition. >While you might get an argument about how you don't need more math, you >find as you go through school that your addition and subtraction become >very good. Not because you concentrate on them, but because you've >moved beyond them to the point where they are second nature. >As one trains in a system that has dan ranks, the rise in ranks is like >learning more math. You may not do much differential equations or >fractal calculations, but your division is real good. >And if learning more forms is only allowed through testing, how long >can you stand to do only TG 1-8 and Koryo, anyway? > > Rick Foley - ------------------------------------------ I really like Master Foley's comments about why someone would WANT to continue after 1st Dan. I also feel that I have something to add because I am a cho dan bo about to test (Saturday!!) for my 1st Dan. I think that someone who has put the time and effort forth to attain that rank NEEDS to continue because the next phase (at least in my school) is to begin giving back. At 1st Dan is when you start helping to educate lower ranks. It truly is a beginning of a new understanding. It seems that when you begin to share your knowledge about a certain technique or form, it means something more to you. Perhaps you discover a different way of using it, perhaps you begin to truly understand what the major tactical difference between a back stance and a cat stance is. And the other reason that I will continue is because I want to WEAR my black belt! I've worked VERY hard to get here, and the black belt really doesn't go with jeans and a t-shirt ;-) Respectfully, Mary Braud ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:12:46 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dan Rank >------------------------------ >From: "Patrick L" * * * SNIP * * * >On the issue of title & rank; > > >But besides that, what is the real reason? Is it prestige? Is it the > >title of master, grandmaster, whatever?< >Why mother, why grandmother? I believe it is a sign of respect. My rank >does not tell me who I am, but it reminds me of who I must help (all those >of lower rank). >Getting in the Way, >Patrick Very nicely put. Thank you for your input. I have already considered many facets of this issue and this is one that I have addressed. The only problem I have come up with this angle is this: Who am I wanting the respect from? If it is the people below me in my school, I would want (and expect) them to either respect me or not respect me for the person I am and for my position as the senior instructor in our location. If one of the other black belts (locally) attains a higher rank than I currently hold, that does not mean that they are automatically the senior instructor. Maybe other schools differ in that, but I was higher in rank than the previous senior instructor and he was still in charge from everyone's perspective. So I'm not sure that would (or at least should) change the respect thing within the school. Maybe I'm just naive... :) Outside of the school, are we now talking about the respect of people who ONLY look at my rank? If that is the ONLY criterion for their respect, I'm not sure I want it. I would think that would be more fear than respect. Again, maybe I'm being naive... :) I absolutely agree that the first black belt is definitely a beginning. But does that road need to be marked by further achievements in rank? As the originator of this thread, I would like to insert a question that I may not have posed earlier. A couple of the replies have stated that the reason to gain higher dan rank is to improve. But does going up in rank mean you are any better, either in physical technique or otherwise? And does NOT going up in rank mean you are not? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have thought about this issue in spurts for about five years now and I have yet to come up with any better answer than this: My attaining a higher dan rank may motivate my students to attain their own higher rank, therefore causing them to work hard (or harder) in their own training. But is there some reason I can do that better at 4th, 5th or 6th degree than 1st, 2nd or 3rd? Let me say that I appreciate all responses and I respect the opinions of people on the list. That is why I brought this issue up here: I'm looking for "the answer". (Now I KNOW I'm being naive... :) But seriously, I am very interested in all the input and I am thankful for the replies. Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:55:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Weird things happen. <> Dear Master Mac, I can remember two similar events; about 10 years ago, my ex-significant other decided she would wake me up by leaning over top of me and kissing me....I remember the sensation of someone being overtop of my body and awakening to find my right fist less than 1" from her left eye...later we concluded that recognition of her scent subconciously caused by brain to change the threat signal to a no-threat signal. about 7 years ago, a different ex-significant other had encouraged me to rent a home in the less affluent section of town so that "we" could have a dog (the apartment wouldn't allow it). She was about to ask me if I heard a noise and froze...I was standing Butt-naked in cat stance with a Tanto in my hand and moving on the balls of my feet towards the front door. No lights were on and I don't remember grabing or unsheathing the Tanto...After I put some pants on and advised our guests that Crack was no longer for sale at this residence, I gave the cops this idiots liscence number, and went back to bed. I've often wondered if others found the reflex spring wound a little too tight :-) Fortunately, I have never harmed a friendly :-) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:23:28 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: cut kick In a message dated 12/5/00 2:12:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > I have heard the term "cut kick" used to describe a taekwondo kick. Can > someone describe this kick to me?" > > I have never heard of this one, its not TKD, but what is the action of the > kick and maybe I can figure out which one it is. It is a kick thrown similiar to an ax kick but hitting the top of your opponenets thigh with the blade of your foot.... ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:19:14 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: BB Rank In a message dated 12/5/2000 3:15:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << What is the point of going up in rank once you reach black belt? .....what is the real reason? Is it prestige? Is it the title of master, grandmaster, whatever? >> Not sure which you are asking, so will take a stab at both.... What is the point in rank being awarded? As in color belt rank, BB rank gives the instructor an idea of what concepts have been competently understood and applied in technique by the student, and therefore direction on what to teach next. Depending on your system and advancement requirements, BB rank can also give an indication as to the minimum experience level in both training and teaching. This is helpful info to instructors when giving teaching assignments, and to lower ranks when seeking instruction. Why is BB rank pursued? There are as many answers as there are people pursuing rank. Some reasons are honorable, some less so. A true martial artist is forever a student, always seeking to add to his/her treasurehouse of knowledge. In ranked systems, sometimes knowledge is withheld, for various reasons, until the preceding level is completed with competency. Also, within an organization or school, many times a particular rank must be achieved in order for one to hold a position such as Instructor or Head Instructor, or to open their own school. Are there unpleasant egos to deal with in ranked (titled) positions? Sure, just as there are in any business or professional arena. Don't let the people with personal issues be an impediment in your path, but rather learn to be water..... but that's another topic! ;-) DS ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:32:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Mr. Hackworth's History Mr. Hackworth, I do not know you, but needless to say, I have heard of you. I am sorry to say that it has not all been positive. Since I am not one to judge on second hand information, I am genuinelly interested in knowing you martial arts history. This will help me understand some of the reasoning you use when forming your opinion on such things as the USTU. (By the way the comparison of USTU to the KKK, not a very good one. I might have gone with a comparison with USTU and the recent presidential elections). For the record, I am not a member of the USTU. So I am not about to go to war for them over your comments. If you wish to email me privately with this information that is fine. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:52:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Dan Levels The following represents my VHO's and $0.02 worth, but a good topic so here goes.. 1. Grandmother, Father, Great Uncle...I called all those people by those titles or Yes Sir/Yes Mam growing up..It's about respect. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. A Sabum Nim/Sensei/Sifu has this same level of experience beyond their students, and so an honorific is appropriate and polite (as I said IMHO). 2. On that note, I generally only use the following titles: Kyosa Nim - Class Instructor (not the dojang owner) Sabum Nim - Chief Instructor (owner of the dojang) Kwan Jang Nim - Head of the Kwan (Federation/org.) Do Ju Nim - Founder of the Art (or Kwan) I can only assume titles like supreme grand master are part of the assimilation into American culture (again IMVHO). I'm not sure what prefix a Korean would add to "Head of the house" that translates to "supreme head of the house". Maybe when the next telemarketer asks for the head of the house I'll say "let me get the supreme head of household" and let them talk to my wife :-) 3. I can accept and understand the concept that a life-long learning should have only the limits of life-span placed on it so, if based on the systems requirements and time in rank, an 11th or 12th Dan has been earned, by all means award it. 4. I personally practice the art of Tang Soo Do, and all I have learned from my instructors is that 10 represents perfection, and in TSD 9th is the highest level. This philosophy is in harmoney with the Moo Duk Kwan concept that Mid-night Blue is a color that could get darker and therefore represents our room for improvement in all basics even at the Dan level :-) 5. However, I am aware of some TSDMDK practitioners that are refered to as 10th Dan (shrug). (I will not list them in this post but will be happy to provide links to their website if you email me) 6. What I like about Dan levels is a structure and organization of concepts (and skills) to learn at each step along the path. I especially like how Hapkido applies various weapons at various skill levels. From what I've seen in each system they seem to be in some logical order related to the concepts the art is trying to teach at that level. My point is that a system whose cirriculum ends at YuDanja will have stagnant blackbelts...getting bored very quickly with teaching for Master X and learning nothing new... Of course, everyone is doing what works for them... Train with Jung Do in your hearts... The rest is commentary, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:22:00 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #751 Dear Ray: Just a housekeeping (read also Non-MA) question. Do the numbers of the editions of any particular DD volume necessarily follow in numerical order? By this I mean that occasional I recv editions out of sequence and once in a while I miss a number completely. Its infrequent but happens enough that I thought to ask. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:17:07 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #751 Dear Shaun: I don't know that I have a very good answer for you regarding the purpose for BB ranking. I know intellectually there is no real need for it. Emotionally, as you indicated there is always the need for people to garner prestige, affirm self-worth--- well, you know the story, yes? And, of course, there is that commercial aspect with a substantial fee for each rank (whether or not there is a test) and usually increasing as one goes up, ne? At my classes I make a point of telling the students that despite their rank they are only as good as the quality of their last technique. I will also share with you (with some embarrrasment) that rank is a convenient way to organize material, introduce increasing levels of challenge, and acknowledge dedication and quality performance. FWIW I will share with you that a Black Belt according to my value system is a badge of commitment. I believe that it indicates that the "shopping around" has stopped and that the individual has found not only an interesting activity for mind and body, but a venue for developing themselves in ways that have become, perhaps, unpopular in our culture. From where I sit this morning, increasing ranks in Black Belts have less to do with what you can do with a board or a mugger than as to what additional responsibilities you have become able to address successfully. For instance, we MA are each mandated to leave our art, our community and ourselves a little better for our having been here. Perhaps higher ranks of Black Belt should consider that they are expected to perform this task with a higher rate of success, or a higher level of sophistication. I don't know that I can speak for other teachers. Somehow, though, this seems as it should be according to the values I hold. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:01:55 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #751 Dear Dr. Hackworth: Thank you for your contribution. Secondary to a telephone conversation I have had with M Seo I have agreed to allow the WKF to address any issues regarding the individual you mentioned and his organization. However, I would like to take a moment, if you will, and address a couple of statements that you made which I feel do a disservice to both individuals and the recurring process involving this particular organization. In the matter of making "special claims" it is a matter of record that the individual you mentioned has identified himself as a legitimate holder of a extraordinarily high rank sans qualification, suggesting that such rank is a result of study and investment comensurate rather than the courtesy (read also honorary) title that was bestowed by GM Seo. By way of extension, subsequent titles, ranks and positions may be suspect. In addition, despite his disclaimers on a number of occasions that he "does not teach Hapkido" the use of the word "Hapkido" is found repeatedly to characterize his organization and material. Finally, the use of unsubstantiated claims in advertising such as "world recognized" and "worlds' leading self-defense expert", and "fastest growing, most successful Hapkido (sic) organization" while perhaps common hyperbole' in today's marketing world may also fit the category of "special claims". In the matter of "principles of Hapkido" I must share with you that on the occasion of my participation in a seminar, the individual you mentioned indicated that his principles are "drawn from a number of sources." While I cannot deny that the foundation principles of the Water Principle, Point and Circle and Conservation of Energy/Motion can be found in this material, it was made plain in a lecture disclosing his experience that he has incorporated the biomechanics of a variety of arts and methods; a feat which some of the most accomplished MA personalities of our time have been unable to do (see Point One). In the matter of the negative comments from "people who are simply jealous" I am afraid that you have the advantage. I have been privey to a few exchanges in this matter and certainly have seen defensiveness as well as disrespect. I am not sure what is in the hearts of all of the contributors. I will say that I am aware of at least one or two contributors who are essentially indifferent to this individuals' commercial success-or the lack thereof. I hope to count myself in this cluster as well. However, as I am sure you are aware integrity and honor play no small part in the MA profession especially where commerce is concerned. Sadly, Hapkido has been especially hard-hit by misrepresentation, misinterpretation, misinformation and exploitation. For each jerk of the art in these directions, there are, then, over-reactions in the other direction. Fortunately, the people involved are capable of healing, but the art as an inanimate item often remains unconstructed. I will concede your point of jealousy if you will consider that at least some of the individuals involved may be acting out of consideration for the greater good of an extraordinary art, yes? This rather neatly brings me to you last comment regarding what is "...wrong with wanting to provide a practical martial arts oriented...(etc)" In a word, nothing. The question is not what is done, rather how it is being done. I have no qualms with the nature of the program you cite. Rather I am concerned about methodology, in this case more of marketing and representation than of instruction. Hapkido is a comprehensive Korean MA which integrates a broad range of technique and training utilizing shared biomechanics, philosophy and culture. One can no more take disparate techniques from many fields and condense them to form "Hapkido" than to take the nouns from one language and the verbs of another language and hope to produce an intelligible international language. The use of such qualifiers as "legitimate kwan" where "kwan" is construed as "social organization dedicated to a specific endeavor" does not make this attempt any more likely to succeed. Thanks for providing me an opportunity to share some of my opinions. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:23:40 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: kicking in your sleep From: "Todd Worth" <> Warn her not to sneak up on you while you are sleeping???? :-) <> Yes. She has woke me up from that side with no problems, a couple of times when she came around on the right I reacted like I was being attacked. So she doesn't do that anymore. I was also afraid of one of my kids coming up and getting struck, so they don't do that either. Its a strange feeling when it happens, as I'm still under the covers so there is some resistance that worsens the problem. It hasn't happened in a while. << Unfortunately my girlfriend does not train with me and probably wouldn't stand much of a chance, let alone 'kicking my ass' :) >> You said "girlfriend", I said "wife". When your girlfriend becomes your wife, she too will kick your ass :-) Now David R. or Dana V., those guys have to watch out! Mac (just joking of course) ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:28:26 PST Subject: the_dojang: mail > Do the numbers of the editions of any particular DD volume necessarily > follow in numerical order? Yes. > By this I mean that occasional I recv editions > out of sequence and once in a while I miss a number completely. Its > infrequent but happens enough that I thought to ask. It just means that one got lost or delayed between here and there. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:37:37 PST Subject: the_dojang: basic rules of net-life For those new to email, distribution lists, and the Internet. Do NOT send email sent privately to you to back to the list. Got it! Feel free to engage in private discussions if you wish, but do not include me or forward the responses to me. If you don't like what is being said to you then complain to their ISP with a copy of the offensive email, or meet with the person for a face-to-face 'chat'. Also for those that wish to attack others, at least have the guts to put your name on your email. Else your comments deserve zero consideration, ZERO. Thanks for listening and understanding. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:38:16 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #753 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.