From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #756 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 7 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 756 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Testing after Black the_dojang: Black Belt Rank the_dojang: Housekeeping items the_dojang: RE: USTU and Kukkiwon et al the_dojang: RE: Ettiquette and # order the_dojang: RE: Staking Claims the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #753 the_dojang: RE: Rank Confusion the_dojang: RE: respect the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 14:30:59 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Testing after Black >From: Daremo and Kitsune >Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:44:27 -0600 >Subject: the_dojang: Testing after Black > > >From: "Christopher Spiller" > >Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 00:44:32 -0000 > >Subject: the_dojang: Reasons for promoting after 1st dan > > > > >Very cool. This kind of brings up a point that I have discussed with >some > > >of the black belts in my school but I'm not certain I have ever come up > > >with a completely satisfactory answer. What is the point of going up >in > > >rank once you reach black belt? > >Testing after black can also be looked at this way...since the term Chodan >(Shodan in Japanese) actually means "first step," you have now shown >yourself to be serious about learning your art. All of the techniques that >you have learned and can now do only make up about 10% of what your art is >truly about. It takes a serious student to look deeper and take the >responsibility to learn the material as well as help those who are also on >the journey. > >Robert Frankovich >4th Dan AAU Taekwondo >4th Dan Song Moo Kwan Taekwondo >2nd Dan Seidokan Aikido > >www.tigerconsulting.org > >"There's more to balance than not falling over." > Michael Angier Just to clarify, I was not the one who originally asked that question. I cut and pasted it and THEN made my own response to the question of reasons for advancing in dan ranks. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: bwoodard@mortonsalt.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:42:13 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Black Belt Rank Our Grandmaster told us one day after testing the following: Begin paraphrase...... When you are a white belt you begin a journey or climb up a mountain. All you can see at white belt is this "mountain". At each level (read belt level) the terrain is getting more and more challenging and steep. The higher you climb this mountain you begin to see the tips of other mountains in the range behind. At Black belt (1st Dan) you have made it to the top of the first mountain only to find it is the smallest one in the whole range, but also the only way to enter the rest of the range. ........end paraphrase. I only wish I had a tape recording of that. He said it much more eloquently than I did. Brian Woodard Dirty Brown Belt (1st Kub) TKD ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:04:26 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Housekeeping items Sorry, Daniel. I'll use a "generic heading" just one more time and promise to be a bit more specific from now on. I know what you mean about having a hard time following particular responses as they relate to other contributions. BTW: don't worry about the grammar. When it comes to correct grammar I always like the story about Winston Churchill who when challenged about his use of "dangling prepositions" stated that such criticisms was something "up with which I shall not put." Thanks also goes out to Patrick. Was that contribution (listing) on this Net? I have only been here a couple of months but save the #-s I have to 3.5 disk. If you have a time frame it would help. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:36:17 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: USTU and Kukkiwon et al Dear Ray: "...> The USTU is a business, which makes millions of dollars a year, basically > selling rank ... FWIW, 1st Dan is $70, 2nd Dan is $90, with half of that going back to the Kukkiwon... > I myself have been to a couple of these schools, which is why I phrased it > the way I did. Perhaps a larger sample size is warranted. :) ..." As something of an outsider to TKD it would be very helpful if some good samaritan would take a moment out and list perhaps the top 10 organizations and a brief statement (25 words or less) characterizing that organization. I would even be willing to do the same for Hapkido if somebody thought it would help them get more out of these discussions. For you TKD people I am sure it is pretty easy to follow the various issues knowing the organizations. As a Hapkido practitioner I don't pretend that I have any vested interest in these issues, but it would help to be able to express myself intelligently should someone approach me. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:22:41 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Ettiquette and # order "It just means that one got lost or delayed between here and there." Dear Ray: Thanks for the clarification. BTW: "Also for those that wish to attack others, at least have the guts to put your name on your email. Else your comments deserve zero consideration, ZERO." I am very sorry that you found it necessary to have to make this observation. I am glad that you did, but it still stings a bit that individuals can train in MA and after perhaps sometime of training not be able to find the simple strength of character to take a particular position and then accept their association with that position in the eyes of their fellow MA. Regardless of art or style I believe it is a sign of sound training and a direct reflection on the teacher and lineage when MA stand by their positions for what they are and identify themselves as such. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:03:30 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Staking Claims Dear Dr. Hackworth: ".... I am amazed at how many people think that it is OK for nearly every Korean instructor in American to claim that they were a former Korean National Champion or that they taught US Special Forces personnel in Vietnam. How about the incredible number of Hapkido Masters who claim to have learned from Koreans during the Vietnam War. Didn't any of these guys actually fight the war? Maybe some of the ICHF claims are exaggerated, but no more than many of the Korean run organizations. Those that claim to be the original martial art of Korea or the oldest martial art in Korea or the martial art of the Korean military, Royal Court and many other ridiculous claims. Maybe I am wrong. But isn't JP certified by the WKF? The WKF has more 8th and 9th dans popping up each year. I know of two people who were 4th or 5th dans 3 years ago but had recent press releases for getting 8th and 9th dan from the Kido Hae. Maybe they are fast learners?..." I reprinted your entire contribution as a way of saying in the strongest possible terms that I agree with everything you said. I will also add to your listing the vast numbers of individuals who "received" their promotions from the various airlines that service the Pacific Rim. In fact I will also throw-in collectives of individuals who essentially promote each other as a way if inflating the stature or prestige of their organizations. As the head of your own organization I am sure that you have had occasion to run into these types perhaps even more frequently than myself. Having said that, I must now share with you my own limitations concerning both language and culture as well as my place in the time-line of my arts development. Perhaps were I born a generation earlier and in another country I would railing about GM Ji and his opening a Hapkido school with only a 3rd Dan. Maybe not given the culture. I might even be complaining about people like GM Lee or GM Seo oganizing their own art as an act of disrespect to GM Choi. Again, maybe not given the culture. As a Hapkido practitioner in this country at this time, however, I have all I can do for my part to protect the integrity of the art I practice right here and right now. I was recently overwhelmed to visit a website which appeared to list perhaps a couple hundred organizations for various Korean MA right here in the US, and you just know I have no intention of going after each and every one of those people to check what they are saying and selling. But I suspect that in your heart you (and I and a lot of other people) want our most important MA personalities to be as far above reproach as possible. I have to be honest and say that I would hold you to the same standard, and would expect that in your position as a leader of the MA community you would hold me accountable as well. In the US accountability is something most authorities avoid like the plague. I would hope that our training and development at least produces individuals who can hold to a position when right, and admit their infractions and make corrections when they are wrong. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "donna galster" Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:32:24 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #753 I have done that once. Not too long after I was married. I drempt that I was fighting a boy who was a school bully when I was growing up. When I woke later that day, (I worked nights.) My husband was scowling at me. I asked what was the matter? Apparently, he leaned over to kiss me and I socked him in the jaw. The only time I was angry at him for a dream was I was dreaming I was on a boat alone with Tom Sellek. I was just about to kiss the fella, when I smelt something burning. P had let the coffeepot boil dry. I will never forgive him for that one. Learn to control the dream man, before you hurt someone. Donna From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:39:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: On kicking one's spouse in one's sleep Hi Folks, Great new topic! I've done this sort of stuff several times: 1. While fighting an enormous sumo guy in my sleep, I suddenly realized I was stopping my kicks one inch away, so I followed through with my side kick and broke the wooden box at the base of our bed. 2. In another dream battle, I unleashed a flurry of front kicks and flying front kicks upon my opponent. In reality, I front kicked my wife in the butt about six times and pushed her off the bed. 3. With a front kick, I knocked over the fan next to our bed in another episode. 4. The most dangerous one was when I awoke after hammerfisting the bed about an inch away from my wife's head. She was not amused. She hasn't made us get separate beds yet, but another incident like that last one and she just might! _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:30:21 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Rank Confusion Dear Jon: "...What is the purpose of bestowing an honorary title in the Martial Arts? It seems some Korean GM's are quick to give rank and when it's questioned claim the rank was only "honorary". How much to these GM's receive for these promotions? If Combat Hapkido is not Hapkido why is it registered with the Kido Hae as such? If it is only listed as a social club, why would GM Seo allow this kind of confusion?..." Within the context of Korean culture there are a number of protocols that at first glance seem rather suspicious to we Americans. One such custom is the manner in which a MA student will frequent or study under a variety of teachers and later single out a particular one with which to identify themselves. Very common practice and one that seems to fly in the face of such cultural teachings regarding respecting ones elders. I suspect that some of the problem is that the Japanese have that patri-linear Ryu-ha system that has become something of a de facto standard.In that system there is room for only one authority and that authority in turn is expressed through only one head master. Another custom is this matter of awarding rank which can actually serve a variety of functions. Of course we all know about the testing/competency function for various belt ranks. There is also its use to acknowledge accomplishments (ie. A handicapped student who despite a wheelchair trains hard to exceed their limitations), recognition of administrative standing (usually 7th Dan and above) or as a courtesy to identify or validate the nature and existence of an organization. I must tell you honestly that if there is any "confusion" regarding rank, I suspect the problem lies not with someone such as GM Seo, but with our own propensity in this country to mix-&match various ranks with their intended meaning vs their professed meaning. The person who bestows the rank knows the whys and wherefores of what they do. However, I wish I had a nickel for every ersatz 7th, 8th, or 9th BB in the US whose rank is ceremonial or self-assigned for administrative reasons, but doesn't mind letting people think that it is a statement regarding his skill level in the art. I think its also important to do something about our interpretation of the word "kwan" in this country. There is something about that word that has come to take on an authority that is used to lend validity where I see little. Not being a linguist I am not qualified to shed light in this area. If any of the TKD people want to help out I know that your history is replete with many such organizations. Perhaps you could lend some assistance, yes? Thanks, Jon. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:42:46 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: respect > From: "donna galster" > Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 19:21:54 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #754 > > I heard from someone once say: "If you > cannot respect the person, respect the rank." I disagree with that. I feel > > the person makes the rank. I have to respect them first. To me, if I > really > honestly do not respect that person, then Sir, Master, Ma'am, and > Grandmaster has no meaning behind it for me. In way, my way of showing > respect to a person is calling him by his first name. I know I want to be > called by mine. I hate surnames. Donna, I have to gently disagree with you here. The person that you may not respect received that rank through hard work and perseverance ( so they may have come up through a McDojang... do we know for sure what their path has been? ). They were also awarded that rank by persons holding higher ranks than they... do we now feel no respect for them? Personally I know some higher ranks that I think act like jackasses, but I believe I still owe them the respect their rank deserves. They've put a lot more into the art than I have, so they've earned the respect in that regard. As for first names, I think if you truly respect a person you'll take the trouble to discover what _they_ consider respectful, not expect them to be honored by your individual approach. Regards, Kerry WTF TKD ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:12:36 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #756 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.