From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #757 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 7 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 757 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Combat Hapkido the_dojang: Re: housekeeping the_dojang: Re: Dan Fees, KKW & USTU the_dojang: What's in a name? the_dojang: Rank hath its privilege the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #756 the_dojang: Re: Student moving to New York the_dojang: TKD and HKD organizations the_dojang: West Wind Karate/Bo Fu the_dojang: Respect the_dojang: RE: On kicking one's spouse in one's sleep the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:47:08 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Combat Hapkido Once again the amazing dogma of Hapkido comes out and the attacks on the splinter group of Combat Hapkido hit the air once again. :) Fact - Combat Hapkido is a RECOGNIZED Kwan (Chon Tu Kwan) of Hapkido recognized by the Kido Hae. Fact - As the Kwanjangnim of said kwan John Pellegrini is entitled to the 8th/9th Dan rank just as Dr. Un Yong Kim is entitled to his Rank in Taekwondo being the head of WTF and his signature is on all of my Kukkiwon Certificates. Not Grandmaster Yong Chin Pak or Grandmaster Edward B. Sell (my 2 Taekwondo instructors in my life) Question - What rank were the Kwan heads when the first began their arts? What rank was Choi Young Sool when he taught? If they were not 8th/9th dan who promoted them? Proposal - Lets throw the rank thing in the trash. Kwanjangnim Pellegrini is just that a "Kwanjangnim". He founded a system of teaching. Is it perfect? No. Is SinMoo Kwan Hapkido Perfect? No. Is any martial art system perfect? NO! I look at the Martial Arts in a similar way as religion. There are many different religions. Lets take Catholicism for example. Within it there are many different sects and with different doctrine while holding onto the same dogma. Hapkido (with its many kwans is similar) The bulk of Combat Hapkido is from the style of Hapkido. It also borrows concepts, techniques and principles from other systems such as Arnis, Jeet Kune Do, Wing Chun - to name a few. This is the simple fact of why it is named Combat Hapkido (Chon Tu Kwan Hapkido ) Michael Rowe ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:55:03 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: housekeeping In a message dated 12/7/00 11:51:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > When it comes to correct > grammar I always like the story about Winston Churchill who when challenged > about his use of "dangling prepositions" stated that such criticisms was > something "up with which I shall not put." > > lol....doesnt sound quite right when it's quite right, does it? :) if we wasted time picking apart eachother's poor grammar, not to mention poor use of upper and lower case, etc.....well....we wouldnt have any time to talk about the arts :) melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.chajonshim.com ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:07:45 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dan Fees, KKW & USTU In a message dated 12/7/00 11:51:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > "...> The USTU is a business, which makes millions of dollars a > year, basically > > selling rank ... > > FWIW, 1st Dan is $70, 2nd Dan is $90, with half of that going back to the > Kukkiwon... > > I myself have been to a couple of these schools, which is why I > phrased it > > the way I did. > > what i find interesting about dan fees is that as u.s. citizens, we pay a boatload more for a kukkiwon than a korean national in korea would. unbelievable: 1st Poom: korean pays W 16,900 ($14.69). american pays $70 2nd Poom: korean pays W 18,700 ($16.25). american pays $90 3rd Poom: korean pays W 22,600 ($19.64). american pays $120 1st Dan: korean pays W 18,700 ($16.25). american pays $70 2nd Dan: korean pays W 22,600 ($19.64). american pays $90 3rd Dan: korean pays W 28,799 ($24.95). american pays $120 4th Dan: korean pays W 33,800 ($29.39). american pays $150 5th Dan: korean pays W 41,100 ($35.73). american pays $300 6th Dan: korean pays W 46,300 ($40.25). american pays $350 7th Dan: korean pays W 52,200 (45.38). american pays $450 8th Dan: korean pays W 57,200 (49.73). american pays $550 9th Dan: korean pays W 65,600 (56.71). american pays $700 doesnt that seem a bit ridiculous to you? melinda information comes from www.tkdreform.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.chajonshim.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 13:12:33 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: What's in a name? Dear Richard, >If you think that the name combat hapkido sounds bad, try the English translation of some of the other styles of hapkido.< I don't think "Combat Hapkido" sounds funny, I believe it is inaccurate. In your list of Kwan, Wan, & Do that were Hapkido, some describe themselves as never Hapkido and some as no longer Hapkido. This was done to better represent their teachings. In keeping with the thinking of those Masters, perhaps Mr. Pelligrini might consider changing the name from "Combat Hapkido" to "Not Hapkido". :) Getting in the Way, Patrick Supreme Graham Cracker Real Combat Hapkido _____________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 13:34:44 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Rank hath its privilege Dear Shaun, Thank you for your kind words. >Who am I wanting the respect from?< A person should not desire any respect other than that due any human. However, when you receive "extra" respect it places responsibility upon you. If higher rank does not obligate you more, then after 5th degree (frequently the last "earned" rank) the rank is meaningless. On the lighter side, perhaps the numbering of rank is merely the outgrowth of a homogeneous society with a penchant for applying engineering methodology to everything. :) Getting in the Way, Patrick Founding Supreme Graham Cracker Real Combat Hapkido _____________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Katy Chen Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:37:12 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #756 I've been lurking and reading all the discussion on Ranks and respect, etc. My 2 cents: I think respect must be earned...over and over again. Titles d recognition of certain deeds accomplished, IMHO. When I get my black belt, whenever I do get it, I will consider it to be just a nother key to learning more. I am already satisfied with my level of progress and I am in no rush. When I am ready to learn more,my sa bum nim will give me a belt for the next level, whichver that may be. It's neverending really, and the color doesn't matter. As long as I am learning and training and happy, t's all that counts. please excuse any typos. Thank you in advance for your kindness and support. I really enjoy reading this digest everyday! Jenny :) donutzz@itsa.ucsf.edu ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:31:28 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Student moving to New York > From: Brett Kraiger > Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 23:05:21 +1300 > Subject: the_dojang: Student moving to New York > > Hello all, > > I have a student, 1st Dan, ITF Taekwon-Do, who will be moving to Manhattan > early in 2001. > > We are looking for an ITF school in this area so that she may continue her > training. Is anybody able to help me locate a school in this area? > > Thank you > > Brett Kraiger > Wellington, New Zealand Contact Mr. Vincent Affatigato, Region VII director for the USTF at (718) 680-6112 or by snail mail at 505 Ovington Ave, Brooklyn, NY 11209. You can also try USTF headquarters in Broomfield, Colorado at rsereff@rmii.com or 303-466-4963. Hope this helps Robert Martin A-4-336 ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:44:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: TKD and HKD organizations Bruce Sims wrote: >As something of an outsider to TKD it would be very helpful if some good >samaritan would take a moment out and list perhaps the top 10 organizations >and a brief statement (25 words or less) characterizing that organization. I >would even be willing to do the same for Hapkido if somebody thought it >would help them get more out of these discussions. For you TKD people I am >sure it is pretty easy to follow the various issues knowing the >organizations. As a Hapkido practitioner I don't pretend that I have any >vested interest in these issues, but it would help to be able to express >myself intelligently should someone approach me. I've sent Bruce The_Dojang's list of Korean Martial Art organizations. But that list just gives name & contact information; it doesn't go into specifics of what each is about or what kind of reputation they have. I would like to see some discussion of HKD and TKD organizations including number of members and goals, but would prefer to avoid the kinds of sniping and accusations we've seen recently re the USTU. Any organization will have its share of politics and problems; the USTU is no different. But many people have worked very hard and accomplished much in changing it from within; it's a disservice to them and simply false to say it only exists to funnel money to Koreans. Organizations change over time -- can we keep the reputation responses to people with first hand knowledge of an organization within the past 5 years? David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: Will Lowe Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:16:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: West Wind Karate/Bo Fu I'm sorry to ask this on a _Korean_ martial arts list, but: I've recently had to stop studying at the Kuk Sool Won school I started at after moving to Berkeley, CA in the spring due to scheduling conflicts -- I am only available to study in the mornings, but they mostly have classes around dinnertime. Only a few blocks from me is a school called the "West Wind Karate" school - -- they apparently have several schools in the Bay Area, and they say they to teach a chinese style called "Bok Fu". Does anyone have any experience with the school? ------------------------------ From: David Reed Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 15:14:07 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Respect I've seen this thread again about rank and respect for it based on history or any other number of criteria. May I say that they all miss the point. Respect is not "deserved". Respect is about you and your statement of support for the path you have chosen. Its about being classy and not judging others but as serving as an example. Its not about questioning authority or qualifications. Its about who you are. Having discussions of other people's "deservedness" for rank, prestige, or position is a complete waste of time and violates the foundation principles of every martial art I've seen. Are there fakes, frauds, and massive egos out there? Of course and that's their problem. I align myself with those that have the same goals and I support that system. If there were a serious breach of ethics in violation of our standards by my seniors, I would evaluate my position and perhaps quietly resign. This would be while keeping in mind that my juniors are looking to me for an example of those standards and ethical judgment. So if a new GM pops up with Do Re Me kwan, who cares? If it has strong values and offers value to students, who cares? Many arts have been started and many have gone by the wayside. Honestly, I pity these folks who self-appoint or bargain their way to rank. They are missing the real value of working through it and building the relationships that come with multi-decade commitment. So the next time you meet someone of higher rank you cannot abide, bow even deeper. Demonstrate your self-mastery and ability to be humble by recognizing not that individual but the value the bow represents. Regards, David ------------------------------ From: "Wallace, John" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:29:43 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: On kicking one's spouse in one's sleep I had to laugh in appreciation once the responses on this thread started rolling in. Seems like a common experience! Needless to say, I've had my share of these: 1. Dreamed someone was pinning my elbows from behind - ripped free and knocked a hole in the wall at the head of the bed (no headboard at that time). 2. Dreamed I was scaling a 6' fence. Put my hands on the top and sprang up - - woke to find myself in midair about 2 feet above the bed. 3. Wife draped her arm over me one night, which I apparently began constricting..she punched me, I let go...no recollection 4. Socked her in the side of the jaw once as well. No retaliation for that one, except for dark looks the following morning. 5. Kicked her HARD once in the thigh. I actually paid the price for this one..although she got a charlie horse and a beaut of a bruise I jammed my big toe and couldn't walk straight for 2 weeks. Oddly enough, she's a Martial Artist herself, but hasn't subjected me to any nocturnal abuse. From Donna's contribution I guess we can conclude its not a gender-related thing..maybe some of us are just more prone to acting out? ____________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 17:25:18 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #757 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.