From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #759 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 8 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 759 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Florida 8th Dan KKW the_dojang: Re: Kukkiwon Rank Claims the_dojang: Combat Hapkido the_dojang: Re: Master Pak the_dojang: Last Words on "Ranks" the_dojang: RE: Chon Tu Kwan Re: the_dojang: Re: Kukkiwon Rank Claims the_dojang: Combat Hapkido the_dojang: respect and titles and stuff the_dojang: RE: Thanks Dave, heres' some HKD back atcha' Re: the_dojang: RE: Thanks Dave, heres' some HKD back atcha' the_dojang: ranks, etc. the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:36:02 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Florida 8th Dan KKW From: "richard hackworth" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:21:56 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #757 <> Funny but I have seen the certificate and verified it. Grandmaster Edward B Sell of Florida is an 8th Dan Kukkiwon. He is also the only american in Florida that I know of that makes this claim so you must be referring to him. He is also a 9th Dan from the Chung Do Kwan he is still waiting for approval for his 9th Dan via the Kukkiwon whether he'll receive it that is another story. Did he receive his 8th dan from the USTU heck no, he sent his paperwork in through his instructor GM Hae Man Park directly to Korea. Michael Rowe 5th Dan US. Chung Do Kwan 4th Dan Kukkiwon ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 14:38:42 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kukkiwon Rank Claims Mr. Hackworth. Unfortunately, it seems many claim to be certified by the Kukkiwon who are not, provide false Kukkiwon certification, or profess to hold ranks they do not. It is too bad that these people do not have integrity and honesty, and feel the need to lie. Often, these lies are for self, commercial, and/or organizational benefit. It sounds as though Florida is no more safe from this than other states. Perhaps you should contact Al Cole, whom you may know, and present your complaints to him. I believe he may already be examining claims of Kukkiwon fraud claims in Florida for the WTF. Hope this helps. Dana >------------------------------ > >From: "richard hackworth" >Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:21:56 -0500 >Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #757 > >What Americans have received 8th or 9th dan from KKW through the USTU? None >that I know of. I heard of one guy claiming 8th KKW in Florida, but when I >asked the International Director at KKW, Kim, Byong Won, he just gave me a >puzzled look and shook his head No. > >------------------------------ _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:31:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Combat Hapkido Michael Rowe wrote: >Fact - As the Kwanjangnim of said kwan John Pellegrini is entitled to the >8th/9th Dan rank just as Dr. Un Yong Kim is entitled to his Rank in >Taekwondo being the head of WTF and his signature is on all of my Kukkiwon >Certificates. Not Grandmaster Yong Chin Pak or Grandmaster Edward B. Sell >(my 2 Taekwondo instructors in my life) As head of the WTF, Dr. Kim has an honorary 10th Dan from the Kukkiwon, but he is an organizer, not an actual martial artist. He did not earn a TKD black belt in the sense of practicing techniques and testing for it. Note that the only other Kukkiwon 10th Dan is Juan Samaratach ?sp? (the World Olympic Comittee head), again, not an actual martial artist. So the people with the highest 'rank' don't actually know TKD at all. I doubt this comparison was what you had in mind. David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 08:42:51 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Master Pak >From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" >Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:47:08 -0600 >Subject: the_dojang: RE: Combat Hapkido * * * SNIP * * * >Certificates. Not Grandmaster Yong Chin Pak or Grandmaster Edward B. Sell >(my 2 Taekwondo instructors in my life) On a lighter note in this whole discussion, is this the Yong Chin Pak from ISU? I have met Master Pak and I believe he has been acquainted with my GM, Suk Ki Shin, in the past. It truly is a small world. :) Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: DWall1008@aol.com Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 09:34:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: Last Words on "Ranks" I have been reading the dojang digest for almost a year with much interest. Let's all remember that rank is also a "relative" thing. How many martial artists have started in one discipline studied, advanced and moved along in the journey to another discipline? Perhaps even starting out as a white belt and studying and advancing in that system. I have met many quality people who have advanced rank or even a black belt in another system who humblely stand in the back row with a white belt around their waist just happy to be continuing on their journey listening and watching intently as the instructor shares their knowledge. As an example, a young student in beginners kids class was asking questions to instructors and assistant instructors as to why they were not "black" belts. The new instructor politely answered his questions but he probed further. To give my two cents, I added that he should never be fooled by the color of the belt around the persons waist, that everyone! will always be a student learni ng from everyone they meet. I have been studying for six and a half years and have learned more about martial arts from the littlest five year old white belt as well as the most knowledgeable master. Let's keep it all in perspective. ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:41:44 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Chon Tu Kwan I originally wrote: >> This is the simple fact of why it is >> named Combat Hapkido (Chon Tu Kwan Hapkido ) >> Beungood then asks <> Chon Tu Kwan is the official Kwan name at the Kido Hae. It is even now being put on the Combat Hapkido Certificates for gup and Dan Ranks. Michael Rowe Nebraska Director - ICHF ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 7:23:17 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Kukkiwon Rank Claims > not. It is too bad that these people do not have integrity and honesty, and > feel the need to lie. Often, these lies are for self, commercial, and/or > organizational benefit. It sounds as though Florida is no more safe from > this than other states. Perhaps you should contact Al Cole, whom you may > know, and present your complaints to him. I believe he may already be > examining claims of Kukkiwon fraud claims in Florida for the WTF. From what we know, former list subscriber Master Cole isn't actually investigating anything for the WTF. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:03:58 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Combat Hapkido John Pelligrini was promoted in HAPKIDO, by Kwang Sik Myung, I think to the level of 5th Dan, Kwang Sik Myung was promoted in HAPKIDO by Doju Nim Ji Han Jae to the rank I believe of 9th Dan,,, so how is it perfectly "substantial", to say that John Pelligrini is a "legitimate" 8th or 9th Dan in Hapkido? Is it because he was promoted by an administrator of a different art such as Kuk Sool Won? I also wonder why the people who usually argue the validity of this scenario. Could it be that they too have ulterior motives Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: Ken Barrett Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:01:32 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: respect and titles and stuff Donna Galster wrote: >> I know I have to be called Ma'am by someone in the >> do-jang that is lower ranked than me. I will accept that. >> But,do not call me Mrs. Galster. I could never get used >> to that surtitle. But, when it comes to Masters and >> Grandmasters and First Dans and up, I call them that >> even if I have to. >> ... Respect is a two way street, as they say. I tend to call everyone Sir or Ma'am, or Mr. or Ms. - regardless of whether they are junior or senior to me. It is as disrespectful to refer to a junior in an overly casual manner at the dojang as it is a senior. At social circumstances - dinners, parties and the like, this protocol can change. This depends of course on the relationship you have with your juniors and seniors. As I am a bit of a dim whit when it comes to names, I tend to always stick with the same protocol in both both social and training situations. Titles such as Master and Grand Master I will use for my seniors and peers - if they want those titles to be used. Personally I find them too grandiose for myself, as I do not take myself all that seriously. - -- Ken Barrett ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:15:53 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Thanks Dave, heres' some HKD back atcha' Dear David et al: Thank you once again for passing that list along. In return let me share some information about the various Hapkido related organizations from the research I have been doing on other Nets. Before I start I need to share two quick disclaimers, though, okay? The first disclaimer is the the word "Hapkido" can mean different things to different people. I am a traditionalist so when I use the word it is usually to represent that constellation of Mudo arts associated with Korean grappling. Other people also use "Hapkido" to reflect grappling but more inkeeping with that material passed to us through GM Choi. Yet again, other people use Hapkido to identify only that material passed directly from GM Choi through GM Ji to us. If you will indulge me for a minute I would like to hold comments on individual usage with the intent of sharing this more general information. The second disclaimer is that I would rather not characterize various organizations beyond just a couple of words. As you can see there is quite a bit of energy in our little community about goals and methods and I think it would be a disservice to use this list to cast some organization in a particular light when it would be mostly my opinion you would be hearing, ne? Three Oldest Hapkido Branches: a.) Hap Ki Yu Sool: Literally "Aiki-ju-jitsu" traces back to Daito-ryu Aiki-ju-jitsu though not necessarily through GM Choi. At least three schools remain in Korea. No actual organization. b.) Jung Ki Kwan: From GM Choi through GM Lim, Hyun Su to M Michael Wollmerhauser (?) see below c.) Han Pul: From GM Choi through GM Kim Yung-yun to M Abraham Jae. Still very popular in Korea but known only a little here in the US. Seven Best Known Modern Hapkido Organizations: a.) Kuk Sool Won: From GM Choi through GM Seo is both a Style of MA as well as the mainstay of the World Kido Federation among other arts. b.) Hwa Rang Do: From GM Choi through GM Lee, Joo Bang is both an art and the mainstay of the World Hwa Rang Do Assn. c.) Sin Moo Hapkido: From Gm Choi through GM Ji, Han Jae is both an art and the mainstay of GM Ji organization. d.) World Hapkido Federation: From GM Choi through GM Ji through GM Myung, Kwang Sik. Identified as Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido, this form is dedicated to research intended to protect the more traditional approach to Hapkido. e.) International Combat Hapkido Assn: GM Choi though GM Ji through Gm Myung to GM Pelligrini. Identified as Chun Tu Kwan, this form is dedicated to innovation to introduce a more modern interpretation and approach to Hapkido. f.) International Hapki Federation (aka: International Hapkido Federation)Assn: From GM Choi through GM Ji (?) to GM Myung, Jae-num: An inter-relationship between material from Hapkido and Aikido community g.) Korea Hapkido Assn: From GM Choi through GM Ji (?) to GM Oh, Se-lim: progressive traditional Hapkido. From this point there are many second generation organizations including the American Hapkido Assn : M Michael Wollmerhauser US Hapkido Federation: M Don Burns US Korean Martial Arts Federation: M JR West Korean Martial Arts Instructors Assn: M James Hackworth And after this the list just balloons with tertiary organizations. I will share with you that Davdis list to me was quite a bit more accomplished and for the primitive nature of this listing I apologize. Perhaps this will be of some help to people who have been as confused by the many entities associated with my art as I have been when observing the TKD/TSD community. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 7:54:18 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Thanks Dave, heres' some HKD back atcha' > g.) Korea Hapkido Assn: From GM Choi through GM Ji (?) to GM Oh, > Se-lim: progressive traditional Hapkido. Isn't that now the KHF? The current KHA is a different org. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 7:56:45 PST Subject: the_dojang: ranks, etc. Ok folks, time to stop bashing other styles/orgs/masters/etc. (yes, I guess I've been involved, too) Nothing that has been shared or claimed over the last week or two hasn't been said here before. No need to go over it all again and again and again. Time to move on. Thanks. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 7:57:11 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #759 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.