From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #760 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 8 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 760 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Yong Chin Pak the_dojang: RE: HKD Organizations the_dojang: "Real" TKD for the Street? the_dojang: KMA org. list the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #759 the_dojang: Hapkido Rank Re: the_dojang: KMA org. list the_dojang: Rorian Gracie... the_dojang: "Ranks" and the smallest teachers the_dojang: RE: Ranks and contributions the_dojang: Still waiting the_dojang: False claims the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:48:43 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Yong Chin Pak <> Shaun - Yes it is the Yong Chin Pak of ISU. And I know of GM Suk ki Shin ( he processed my 3rd Dan Kukkiwon paper work Back in 1992) Where are you now ? You know it is the funny thing that people seem to attack my affiliation with GM Pellegrini and assume my skills must suck. Then the find out that I was with GM Pak for almost 15 years then the thoughts change. But the real ammusing thing is that then never judge my skills based on my skills just their perception of my affiliation. Stupid World isn't it :) Michael Rowe ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:55:10 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: HKD Organizations Dear Ray: Sorry, guy, but that's one that I have never been able to sort out for myself. I know there is a Korea Hapkido Assn (KHA)and there is/was a Korean Hapkido Assn (KHA). But I get very confused trying to keep one straight from the other or which (or both of which) are now federations or perhaps defunct. Even as I write this I may be mistating myself. Perhaps a compassionate member of one or both of these organizations or their permutation will take pity on me, ne? I also neglected to mention that the International Hapkido Fed- IHF (GM Myung, Jae-num) can easily be confused with the International Hapkido Fed -- IHF--(From GM Choi through GM Ji to GM Han, Bong-soo). Boy, this just gets better and better, doesn't it? You'll have to excuse me now, I have this overpowering craving for a bowl of alphabet soup. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:14:19 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: "Real" TKD for the Street? CKCtaekwon wrote: "You would think they would be glad he calls it Combat Hapkido. I teach taekwondo, the real kind :), taekwondo for the street and I am very glad other schools in the area call theirs Olympic Taekwondo. I am not a big fan of Olympic TKD and am glad that they choose to differentiate between Real TKD and Olympic Style." First of all, I'd love to know exactly what encompasses "real" TKD. Second, the statement seems to imply that Olympic Style TKD is somehow watered down, and/or less legitimate than the "real" stuff...again, not quite sure how "real" TKD is defined. Personally, I don't practice Olympic Style TKD, but I respect them for their emphasis on competition and athletic training...I don't think you can get any more "real" than that. Third, the statement seemed to imply that the speaker trained in TKD for the express purpose of handling street violence. At the risk of starting a list-wide flame war...I have to say that the idea of training TKD for street fighting is a dead-end road. If you're worried about the street, do yourself a favor and switch systems. As a relative newcomer to the martial arts (a mere 16 years of study and training) I'd like to offer some point-by-point discussion of why TKD (in the pure sense) is ill-suited for street defense. 1. The art is completely devoid of any and all realistic clinch fighting. I'm not talking about hip throws, and standing joint-locks...I'm talking about aggressively pummeling for inside head/arm control, working for underhooks, and establishing a solid base from which to work close-range weapons (headbutts, knees, elbows). That's the flavor for grappling on the street...TKD doesn't address it, and if you ARE addressing it in your curriculum, then by definition you aren't doing pure TKD...you've added something else. 2. The art is totally devoid of anything that looks or feels like real groundfighting. I'm not talking about teaching your students some simple umpa-and-roll mount escape, or guard pass picked up at a Gracie/Machado roadshow. I'm talking about aggressively establishing and maintaining critical ground positions (mount, bottom scissor/guard, side control, scarf hold), escaping from extreme positions of disadvantage while under duress (opponent is dropping bombs from the high-mount position), active ground transitions and controlling a scrambling opponent (leg rides, turk rides, half nelsons), and "finishers" (joint locks, strangulations/chokes, compressions, etc). TKD does not have these things in its curriculum...if you're doing them, you ain't doing TKD. 3. Weapons awareness and defense is seriously lacking. Most, but not all, of the stuff I've seen passed along as "self-defense against weapons" is pure tripe. Hard style blocks against a knife thrust, assuming you can kick knives out of people's hands, failure to deal with the fact that grappling and weapons attacks happen simultaneously (heck, no grappling to begin with), unrealistic attack assumptions (guy holding a knife to your throat...yeah, right), the list goes on. Look, any "street fighting" curriculum that focuses on anything that happens above the fifth-grade playground level had damned well better START with weapons, and then move into the "best case" scenarios later (guy/gal decides to fight by the Marquis de Queensbury rules). TKD doesn't start with weapons defense, spends most of it's "flight time" against attacks that will never come (your sparring partner kicks you in the chest...Mr. Streetfighter plays a different game), and doesn't teach it's students to USE weapons ("numchucks" don't count). 4. Too much emphasis on kicking. Street-fighting is NOT 75% kicking...I don't claim to know to any degree of accuracy what percentage of tricks used in a self-defense situation could be classified as "kicks", but I DO know that 99.99% of TKD schools are heavily slanted toward training the kick as a primary tool/tactic. A kicking game is important...but highly refined kicking techniques are NOT what gets you home or keeps you out of the morgue. 5. Not enough emphasis on power hitting with the hands. Want to learn how to be a terror on the street, but only have time to study one discipline...learn to box. Get in the gym, hit the focus mitts, hit the heavy bag, work the speed bag, and then get in the ring with someone who knows what they are doing and BANG AROUND. Six months of this type of training under a competent instructor is better than ten years of one-step throat strikes, eye spears, and simulated nut grabs put together. There's a reason we walk on our feet, and eat with our hands people...don't try to reinvent the wheel when you fight. Learn to hit with the hands...HARD...period. Closed fist, open palm...take your pick...I don't care. The biomechanical principles of boxing are the most efficient manner to hit a person with speed, economy, and power...if this weren't the case, boxers would not fight the way they do...they'd be doing it another way...it's the product of an "evolutionary" process much in the same way the Fosbury Flop surplanted the straddle jump and Western Roll. Learn from other people's headaches because that's the highest form of learning. TKD TYPICALLY doesn't do a good enough job of getting people to fight with their hands. One culprit is the heavy slant towards kick training. The other culprit is the fact that too much time is spent on biomechanically inefficient knife-hand, ridge-hand, and back-hand strikes. 6. Virtually no takedowns and/or defenses against takedowns. Again, I'm not talking about hip throws, or step-behinds on your training partner who just lovingly hugged you from behind. I'm talking about taking an aggressive, resisting attacker to the ground with doubles, singles, high-crotch takedowns, throws from head/arm control, etc. Also, the importance of defending against the takedown can't be understated. I'm not one of these yahoos who claims to have been in dozens of street fights, but I've been in my share and I've seen my share. Bottom line...people will shoot on you, either as a primary tactic or out of desparation from getting the stuffing beat out of them. Sprawl, sprawl, sprawl...one of the most important self-defense skills you can possess, and TKD DOES NOT TEACH IT...if you claim to be teaching this, you have modified the curriculum. Now, a couple of things in closing. This post wasn't meant to poormouth TKD, or point out it's inherent weaknesses. I dare anyone to show me a perfect system. I also didn't point out all of the great things TKD can do for people (and has certainly done for me)...promotes fitness and health, teaches values, instills confidence, provides a vehicle for expression, and facilitates personal development. LOTS of positives in TKD. However, it's NOT geared for dealing with a serious, real world attack. If you think it is, I urge you to reevaluate your position. Now, does this mean TKD can't be used for self-defense...ABSOLUTELY NOT. That is NOT what I am saying. There are thousands of anecdotes to support the fact that TKD students have successfully used their hard-earned skills to defend themselves. The point that I am trying to make is that if you are using TKD as a vehicle for self-defense WITHOUT modifying and "improving" the curriculum in a fundamental way (not talking about incremental changes...go back to my six points) then you are being inefficient with your time and the time of your students. Toyota Camry is a great automobile...see how far that bad boy can get you in an average off-road environment. Different tools for different purposes...no more, no less. It's not my intention to insult or call into question the best intentions of others. It's just my opinion that: 1. Terms like "street" and "combat" are bandied about so much these days that they have essentially lost their true meaning. 2. People (no one in particular) are misapplying arts that were never meant to operate in particular environments. Taking TKD to a street fight is like taking Judo to a boxing match. There's a disconnect. My six-point list was far from complete in terms of laying out the specific skill sets needed to efficiently thrive in a REAL street attack, but I'm confident that it illustrates some of the primary principles that are indicative of the "street" (depends on your definition I guess). At least I hope it can drive the understanding that traditional TKD is sorely lacking in many areas. My gosh...don't get me STARTED on the psychological aspects/ramifications that TKD doesn't address...I direct anyone to Tony Blauer and his pioneering work in this regard. Not trying to start trouble...just my feeble attempt to help. I try to respect all ways and viewpoints, and accept with delight any opinions contrary to my own. I've found that's the best way to learn. ____________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:08:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: KMA org. list Bruce wrote: > >I will share with you that Davdis list to me was quite a bit more >accomplished and for the primitive nature of this listing I apologize I can't take credit for it; I think Ray built it; I got it from a previous dojang digest. If anyone else wants it I'm sure you can find it in the archives; or I could repost it or send it to you. David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: "richard hackworth" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:17:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #759 GM Ed Sell is not the only American in Florida claiming to have an 8th Dan KKW. And my question was, and still is "Are there any American USTU members that have been promoted to 8th or 9th Dan?" I am well aware of who GM Sell is. We are friends and both of us are members of ChungDoKwan. Unless he has said otherwise. If our relationship has changed since our last conversation, I would like for him to tell me about it directly. That way I am not getting second hand information. Best Regards, Richard Hackworth ------------------------------ From: "Jon David Payne" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:26:53 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Rank >>John Pelligrini was promoted in HAPKIDO, by Kwang Sik Myung, I think to the level of 5th Dan, Kwang Sik Myung was promoted in HAPKIDO by Doju Nim Ji Han Jae to the rank I believe of 9th Dan,,, so how is it perfectly "substantial", to say that John Pelligrini is a "legitimate" 8th or 9th Dan in Hapkido? Is it because he was promoted by an administrator of a different art such as Kuk Sool Won? I also wonder why the people who usually argue the validity of this scenario. Could it be that they too have ulterior motives ?>> No one wants to admit fault or ignorance, everyone wants to be the guy in the white hat riding into the sunset, that's the ulterior motive I think. Mr. Pelligrini's Combat Hapkido techniques look to be sound in the self-defense arena. The problem I hear people commenting on is the name of the style and the way he was promoted. I'm ignorant in the political area. I don't understand why GM's bestow honorary rank on instructors telling them they have a time period to test for the rank they're already wearing because the GM gave it to them before testing. I don't understand why a GM from one style would/could promote someone from another. The person who gets the blame seems to be the recipient of the rank, but not much is mentioned about the GM that gave the rank except for excuses like, "It was an honorary promotion to promote the art etc.". Jon David Payne ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 9:02:38 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: KMA org. list > >I will share with you that Davdis list to me was quite a bit more > >accomplished and for the primitive nature of this listing I apologize > > I can't take credit for it; I think Ray built it; I got it from a previous > dojang digest. If anyone else wants it I'm sure you can find it in the > archives; or I could repost it or send it to you. Right. It currently lives on Ron Bain's excellent website, which is linked to from www.martialartsresource.com. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:00:03 PST Subject: the_dojang: Rorian Gracie... Funny... I was recently watching a rerun from the CHiPs TV show and there standing behind 'Ponch' was Rorian Gracie. He was an extra that was in-frame for about 10 or 15 seconds and then moved off camera, stage right. I wonder if 'Ponch and John' learned any GJJ from him? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "John Franich" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:48:27 -0900 Subject: the_dojang: "Ranks" and the smallest teachers DWall1008@aol.com wrote: > I have been studying for six and a half years and have learned more about martial arts > from the littlest five year old white belt as well as the most knowledgeable master. > Let's keep it all in perspective. I echo that sentiment. Our instructor tells every beginning student that they will teach him more than he teaches the student. When I first started my studies 4 years ago, I thought that what he said was just a nice way to make the new students feel comfortable -- to bolster their self-image and encourage them. I didn't understand the real truth of his message until I started teaching new white belts myself. I feel like I only began to really "learn" my art when I started trying to teach it to others. :-) I have such a long way to go..... John Franich Cho Dan Bo, WTSDA P.S. My instructor is featured in this December, 2000 "Master's Profile" at the WTSDA website. Here's the URL if you're interested. http://www.worldtangsoodo.com/masters/index.shtml ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:52:21 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Ranks and contributions Dear David et al: Thanks for your comments on 8th, 9th and 10th degrees. I remember GM Sells as he has been through the Illinois area a number of times and visited TKD here. I was sure there was another 9th Dan that I saw pictured in an ITF or WTF (one of those "TF-s") ad. The reason I was writing back was to use your contribution to raise the issue of "service" regarding some of these high ranks. First I will agree that there are a number of high ranking BB which are essentially administrative positions with the Kwan. Sometimes I think these fellas should have a sign around their neck indicating that the BB is just that-administrative-rather than technical. But the reason that I am writing this is that I would like to know what contributions these higher ranks are actually making to the improvement of the art. Sometimes I feel as though the title "grandmaster" is Korean for "send the money this way". I had always been taught that for all intents and purposes technical advancement was curtailed at 7th Dan and administrative or community responsibilities took precedent. But what is it that is any better about the Korean arts for having all these GM with elevated ranks. I am a lowly 3rd BB and have no organization, but I use my corporation to help students buy uniforms at wholesale, buy equiptment at wholesale and get reduced rates into seminars and expos. How is it that the sum total of my experiences with most GM and their organizations has been a certificate, a patch, a letter and ads for their seminars (to the exclusion of others)? I'm wondering why these rather large Korean MA organizations do not band together to provide reduced insurance premiums for their schools, establish 1st Aid and CPR criteria for rank advancement and petition major MA magazines for regular By-lines where-by they can raise the communitys' awareness of developments in their organizations (apart from rank testing and seminars, I mean). And I am not talking about generic efforts such as KICK DRUGS OUT OF AMERICA (though it is an excellent effort). I am talking about subsidizing instructors who offer free lessons to disadvantage kids, offering to subsidize travel expenses for students to particiapate in events, opening in-roads into the Special Olympics, supporting community service such as interships at Day-care (child or senior) or escort and errand service to the elderly and infirm. What role has been played in contributing to a national MA standard for LE and pressing LE training programs to adopt a standard of refresher courses or regular manditory instruction? Where are the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th degrees for their leadership in these things? Sometimes, when I am feeling bit down on myself I begin to think of the many Korean MA organizations as so many groups of piano teachers. Every community has a piano teacher, who gives lessons, holds recitals and gets old. In their case I am not sure why they never band together. In the case of Korean MA it seems that nobody can decide who is going to sit on the top of the ant hill. (Is it just me, or does that sort of ego-involvement seem counter-intuitive to an activity dedicated to the subduing of the ego? How is it that people who have been in the MA for decades are that concerned with their standing that they would let it interfere with the greater good?) Before I stop ranting and raving (and take my medication) let me close with one last thought. The Korean MA of the 1990-s is not the same gullible shmoe of the 60-s and even the 70-s. In the 70-s I didn't know better and pretty much took things on faith. When a TKD instructor came into Olney, Ill and tested over 60 students at an average of $30 a head and walked out the door with an attache' case filled with over 2K., I didn't ask questions. Now I'm over 50 and will be passing my art on to others and I damn well want some answers regarding why things are as they are and can't get better. And I get real crabby when the answer is something like "well that the way we've always done it; that's the way it is." I better go take my nap. I promise only to drink decaf the rest of the day. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:58:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Still waiting Mr. Hackworth, I am still waiting on a reply to my request for your MA background history. Again, if you would like, you can email me privately on this matter. Thank you. Best regards, Jeremy M. Talbott __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:03:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: False claims From: "richard hackworth" "What Americans have received 8th or 9th dan from KKW through the USTU? None that I know of. I heard of one guy claiming 8th KKW in Florida, but when I asked the International Director at KKW, Kim, Byong Won, he just gave me a puzzled look and shook his head No." I don't know what would be worst, a Master making false claims about being ranked by KKW or a Master handing out fake KKW certificates saying that they are real and ranking black belts with those certs. I also heard that was in Florida. Fake masters, fake certs, bad voting. Is it the ocean air? ;) Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:21:23 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #760 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.