From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #764 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 9 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 764 In this issue: the_dojang: no HTML please the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #763 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #763 the_dojang: Sport vs.Self Defense the_dojang: Positives of TKD the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #762 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #763 the_dojang: wrong info the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #763 the_dojang: just silly the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 8:30:15 PST Subject: the_dojang: no HTML please Folks, please remember to not send HTML to the list. Thanks. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "richard hackworth" Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:19:01 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #763 Jeremy, Sorry for the slow reply. I have been playing host and tour guide for a couple of Blue House Body Guards who were here to teach a seminar. There should be some training background info on the www.kmaia.qpg.com website. Unless it has been changed. I am not the webmaster for the site. The other sites are relatives. Those sites were found when I tried to register the name. If there is not a resume on the seminars section of the kmaia site anymore I will send you my brochure by mail. Donna, You sounded surprised to actually see me in a uniform "doing something." You can find me in a uniform doing something monday through friday at my dojang in Ocoee. If you are looking for one of those small commercial schools decorated to look like a chinese restruant without tables and chairs, my place isn't it. It is more like a gymnasium (or dungeon) in a farming community just outside of Orlando. Although I have students who are lawyers, doctors, ministers and other professional types, most of them are what you might call rough and tumble hillbilly kids. Anyone who wants to drop by sometime when they are in the area seeing Disney World or Universal Studios can contact me by private e-mail. My school is 10 minutes from downtown Orlando and Universal Studios and 20 minutes from Disney World. ------------------------------ From: DWoods321@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:32:58 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #763 Dojang Digest Subscribers, This is the same old stuff that keeps the martial arts community divided. Bickering over credentials. One master saying another master is not legitimate because he happens to be affiliated with an organization that they do not like because they do things differently or what not. Where is the inner peace and outer calm that is supposed to accompany the martial arts spirit. Who cares about organizational affiliation? Wonder what the martial artists of the old days fought and bickered about like a bunch of children when there were no organizations? Let us subscribe to Grm Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan philosophy "Stopping the inner and outer conflict through martial arts training." The same over-riding philosophy that is the mark of traditional martial arts as opposed to subscribing to the profit and politics philosophy that is the trademark of "Americanized martial arts". Yes, martial arts have evolved through Americanization and the scrapping of traditional forms and philosophy. They have evolved into a set of moves with no spirituality or morals or ethics. The exponents of these "martial arts", if they can be called such, can only learn to fight instead of learning how to become better people. Take care, God Bless, and Merry Christmas. Tang Soo! David Woods ------------------------------ From: David Reed Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 12:54:59 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Sport vs.Self Defense It was incorrectly stated that self defense oriented systems are "real" versus sport-oriented systems. These "real" systems have no more claim to legitimacy than any other. Why? Because they only became self defense systems when somebody put that spin on them. When the original names for martial arts started to incorporate "Do", the ethic of self defense came about. This first started with Judo at the end of the 19th century. All martial arts started as methods to make war. Every technique you do is designed to overcome an opponent. They are like national defense, if we start it its offensive, if we defend, defensive. The orientation depends on your point of view completely. It is interesting to note that most Chinese arts don't have this problem. They have as their ethical underpinning a value of active justice which requires the occasional offensive action. The technical basis for the "real", "self defense" arts is not defensive in nature. They were also watered down when they were taught more widely in schools. This is a matter of historical fact not opinion. Most of the "real" martial arts today do not practice anything like was done even 50 years ago so what is "real" depends on where you are in the continuum. So for the folks who want to flame on the sport oriented martial arts, I suggest you realize that your "real" art has as many accomodations, adaptations, and holes as the sport oriented art. If you want to make this case then you have to go back to true combative arts for reality. Besides, making comparisons and judgements only opens you up to scrutiny and defines you as uneducated or impolite, two qualities martial artists must not have. Regards, David ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 15:24:05 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Positives of TKD Gary wrote: "I would be interested in your comments on the Positive side of TKD. Please submit." Well, I appreciate your interest in my viewpoint on the positive aspects of TKD. Unfortunately, it's a much easier task to point out the technical shortcomings of any particular style or system as opposed to listing it's virtues. I believe it's a harder task to be objective when outlining the "good" things...I mean you either like and appreciate a system, or you don't...and that in itself tends to create a bit of emotional baggage that clouds one's judgement. However, I'm not one to turn down a request, and I'll try my best to give some insight as to what I think is well and good within the world of TKD (and to a larger degree...most "civilian" fighting arts in general). I could drone on and on about values, discipline, confidence, fitness, blah blah blah. At the risk of sounding jaded, I think that stuff has been done enough and there are those far more eloquent than I when it comes to talking that particular game. I'll try and take a different approach, and actually use my prior arguments about TKD's "non-combativeness" as evidence of it's positive traits. So, here's my take...take it for what it's worth. 1. Social relevance. It's hard to judge the value of any activity outside the context of the greater society within which it's practiced. TKD is no exception. The very fact that TKD (and it's antecedent arts) has moved away from the combative spectrum gives it much more relevance in a society for which "survival of the fittest" is no longer measured in terms of strength, speed, aggression, and the ability to beat another person to death. In fact, I'll argue that the MORE an art moves toward fulfilling the ultimate goal of training one to properly defend oneself, the LESS relevant it is to thriving successfully in today's society. I won't deny for one second that we still live in a violent world, but only the most paranoid among us would put personal protection ability toward the top of their personal list of desired skill sets. The ability to defend oneself in a physical confrontation is just not not something that is called upon on a day-to-day basis, and our society no longer rewards this ability outside the context of performance art (the world of Mel Gibson and Sly Stallone) or sporting events (professional boxing and the organized mayhem of the NFL). So, where does this put TKD?. Well, being somewhat removed from the negative concepts of "fighting" and "aggression" it is squarely in a position to be used as a positive vehicle for personal development through the use of physical movement and mental focus. Any program, art, or style chartered for the express purpose of creating trained killers could NEVER be used as a positive social movement...TKD can and is being used for this (IMO). BIG positive for TKD. 2. Physical fitness and health. I am a very vocal proponent of the fact that TKD promotes good physical fitness and conditioning by way of practicing the movements that are peculiar to the art. While I'm not as dogmatic as some who would claim that the art encompasses the ultimate in physical fitness (the Tae Bo crowd) I am confident that when practiced in a safe and moderate manner it can provide a profound level of conditioning. Now, going back to my point about TKD's "non-combativeness"...you guessed it...by moving away from the field of combatives, TKD has become a MORE efficient vehicle for health and physical development. Let's take one aspect of fitness...range of motion and flexibility. TKD cultivates a marvelous level of health in this regard. The extended arm movements found in most of the striking and blocking techniques develop and maintain good range of motion in the upper extremities. The chambering actions of those same movements also promote range of motion as well as strength and endurance from the necessary muscular constractions. As a plus, most of these movements can be practiced by people of all ages, and as such can provide similar benefits as Tai Chi Chuan and Yoga. The emphasized kicking movements of TKD also promote flexibility and range of motion. This is seen not only in the legs and hips, but also in the torso as the spine and shoulders are forced to re-orient the entire body to facilitate the kicking action. Now, what's this got to do with TKD being "non-combative"? Simply that any combat oriented system would not contain these types of movements...period. Combative systems focus on minimizing range of motion (shortest distance between two points, efficiency, simplicity, etc), the "hard coding" of simple and aggressive responses, the suppression of cognitive "noise" (kill first...think about it later), and the cultivation of an extremely limited toolbox in terms of "technique". None of this is necessarily applicable to building health and fitness. To the contrary, most civilian fighting arts that have only maintained the rudimentary trappings of their combative roots (TKD, Tai Chi, Wu Shu,etc) are much more physically demanding, and therefore much more relevant to developing health. Going back to my first point, health and fitness is MUCH more socially relevant than ass-kicking skills, and therefore better suited to helping the practicioner "thrive" within the given environment (I find this last point extremely ironic when cast alongside the popular notion of "survival of the fittest). Another positive for TKD. 3. Sports and competition. I'm often amused at those who take a dim view of the "sportification" of modern TKD. To them, making competition the focus of TKD somehow cheapens it and waters it down. I don't share this view. I do, however, understand the misgivings that many have toward anything classified as "sport", especially in the professional context. Most sports (in modern times) on the surface appear to be devoid of any of the "martial" values that most of us subscribe to...honor, integrity, courtesy, loyalty, humility. It doesn't help that perception when a young athlete thanks Jesus for helping win the title, and then gets arrested a month later for soliciting a prostitute. Little League coaches slugging it out as fifth grade ballplayers watch on also doesn't help the perception much. But these are isolated incidents, and as such, don't take away from the positive social function that sports and competition play. By moving away from combatives, and toward the sporting arena, TKD has once again positioned itself as a vehicle for positive social maintenance...something a "real" martial art could never do in today's society. Sport is vital...IMO, the product of society's movement toward cooperation and away from conflict. Sport is a unique social mechanism that allows us to channel aggression away from it's basic utilitarian functions (territorial establishment, attainment of status within the social heirarchy, resource allocation), while still satisfying the needs of that dormant beast that lies within us all. When Monica Seles returns a serve, we're not just witnessing sport...we're seeing a transmutation of genetic expression that began eons ago on the plains of Kenya. Sport is necessary...sport is good...sport is healthy. The alternative to sport is unchanneled aggression. Martial artists have also understood this. Jigoro Kano saw it, and it inspired him to break loose from the pack. His "child"...Judo...was intended to use physical expression, cooperation, and sportive competition as a vehicle for developing well-adjusted and balanced human beings. His three point program of kata (technical expression), randori (sparring), and shiai (competitive fighting) is the benchmark for what a modern fighting art should be within the current social context. TKD can be this...we can (and some of us do) use TKD as a vehicle for sportive competition, and in the process instill values and ideas that football and basketball coaches can only dream about. Combatives can NEVER be this...TKD is NOT about combatives...so don't try and make it that way, and don't try and pretend that it ever WAS that way. TKD as a sport is GOOD...it's a positive...don't get in the way of it out of some blind loyalty to the "good old days"...those days are gone and they weren't that good to begin with. I apoligize for the long post. I could go on-and-on about these and various other points. I wanted to be as well-balanced in this post as I was in my earlier critique. I will allow the readers to ascertain whether or not I accomplished that feat. TKD has a LOT going for it, and don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. In the end, it's about making better people...not making better fighters. At least, IMO, that's what it SHOULD be about, but as I said once before, different people have different approaches and I try and respect them all. ______________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:52:12 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #762 Craig Wrote "Wait a minute...are you trying to say that most knockouts in the street are done by TKD fighters, or are you just saying that TKD fighters are capable of knocking people out in the street?" Not at all I am saying that there was an article in a recent issue of the TKD times that was written by an independent observer who was interested in street fights. Of the fights that he investigated a certain amount ended in knock outs and most of those were inflicted by TKD trained fighters. The original post suggested that TKD was not adequate for defending ones self in a street fight this study would suggests a defect in that observation. I just pointed out an article that how prove interesting reading. "groundfighting. Fighting on the ground happens in self-defense situations...to argue against this point is ridiculous. Traditional TKD training (ITF, WTF, whatever) does not impart the necessary skills and knowledge to function in this environment. " If you look in the encyclopedia of TKD there is an entire section on ground fighting, Its part of the testing requirements. Again please don’t confuse WTF sport style training and True ITF martial arts training at a certified ITF school. Again ITF TKD is a martial art and designed for unarmed combat. The article pointed out that most of the street fights the writer studied were over by the time one of the combatants hit the ground, ie. the fight was over on the first strike. A number of knock outs were due to just hitting the ground usually concrete. There is more information about kicks and hand strikes. "The greatest fighter in the history of TKD would be mincemeat in the hands of the average BJJ blue belt once that fight hit the deck. Sad, but true. You can deny it all you want, but TKD does NOT have "all of the techniques"." I know some of the "best fighters in the history of TKD", which is only 50 years old, and I can assure you that they are quite capable of ground fighting. I doubt very, very much if any one could get them on the ground if they saw it coming. No style has "all of the techniques" but most will have a good mix for all situations, with the notable exception of a "sucker punch" no style can deal with that. This argument of my brother can beat up your brother will get no where very fast. "I appreciate the clarification, but I'm well aware of the difference between ITF and WTF. As a matter of fact, I'll be so bold as to say that the WTF has just as much right to call what it does a "martial art" as does the ITF crowd. They're both so removed from anything "martial" that even glaring differences between the two styles are reduced to nothing but philosophical debate. Sorry, but that's my opinion. I don't mean it in a derogatory fashion...I just gotta call 'em as I see 'em." You obviously don’t know the difference between the two. Since the techniques in Taekwon-Do were designed for doing the maximum damage to a person in unarmed combat a fact that has been proven numerous times, and has it’s roots in Taek Kyon and Soo Bak-Gi which dates back to 37 B.C. I would have to say what make other ‘Martial Arts" martial and Taekwon-Do not? John Murphy A-3-756 ITF TKD ------------------------------ From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:59:52 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #763 In a message dated 12/9/00 11:01:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Real Taekwon-Do is a martial art started by General Choi and is practiced by the ITF. >> Do what? Hey there used to be an ATA school here, and they said their version of TKD was Real Taekwondo. I had a couple of friends go check it out, and they were playing dodge ball! Guess that's why they went out of business, people didn't want to pay monthly tuition to play dodge ball when they could do it for free in P.E. gary pieratt >> The ATA is not a member of the ITF. You are confusing the practices of a single school with the actions of an entire organization. We all can find schools of what ever art that are too soft, too hard, not professional, to cold, or what ever. I could name quite a few form a variety of styles that are not up to the standards that I would expect. John Murphy A-3-756 ------------------------------ From: HKDHW@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 19:13:07 EST Subject: the_dojang: wrong info I made a couple of statements about the KHA and I was wrong, Hwang,Duk Kyu was the first student of Grandmaster Ji, Han Jae in Seoul Korea not Andong DoJang I apologize for the inaccurate information. Hal ------------------------------ From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 19:14:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #763 The number that you have here may include Taekwon-Do partitioners in the USTF which are under C. E. Sereff 9th degree, president of the NGB of the ITF. With-in the ITF each country has its own NGB made up of members of each countries organization. There are no " a pointed" heads selected from a head quarters in another country. If you would like more information check www.itf-taekwondo.com or for examples of other countries: http://home.thezone.net/~sdowney/links.htm John Murphy A-3-756 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:55:24 PST Subject: the_dojang: just silly > You obviously don't know the difference between the two. Since the > techniques in Taekwon-Do were designed for doing the maximum damage to a > person in unarmed combat a fact that has been proven numerous times, and has > it’s roots in Taek Kyon and Soo Bak-Gi which dates back to 37 B.C. Actually, I'm confident he does know the difference... Sorry, but these comments are just more of the very foolish my dad is meaner than yours argument. We don't need such sillyness here. Time to move on, back to reality... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 17:03:27 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #764 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.