From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #765 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 10 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 765 In this issue: [none] the_dojang: Re: Craig Stovall is not Big Ken the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #764 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #764 the_dojang: Knife attacks the_dojang: Self Defense vs Martial Arts the_dojang: Titles, life, and it's a Good Day to Die! the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #761 the_dojang: RE: More about GM (the leader not the car) the_dojang: RE: Credentials and responsibilities the_dojang: Every style has its + & -- the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 22:08:37 -0600 Subject: [none] John, It's quite obvious to me that you're very passionate about your TKD, and very confident in the ITF curriculum. I respect that. Normally, I would just "agree to disagree" and let this thing die, but since your post addressed me directly I'll take a few moments to discuss this further...NOT for the sake of argument, but perhaps to facilitate an opportunity for mutual enrichment. Unlike some, I don't claim to know everything, and always welcome the opportunity to enhance and further my personal knowledge. "Not at all I am saying that there was an article in a recent issue of the TKD times that was written by an independent observer who was interested instreet fights. Of the fights that he investigated a certain amount ended inknock outs and most of those were inflicted by TKD trained fighters." I'd appreciate it if you'd take a few moments to retrieve that particular issue of TKDTimes if you happen to own a copy, or perhaps know someone who does. If you'd kindly relay the issue number I'll try my best to get ahold of it and examine the article myself before I pass judgment on it's findings. "If you look in the encyclopedia of TKD there is an entire section on ground fighting, Its part of the testing requirements." I'm intrigued to be honest. I'd appreciate some clarification for my own personal learning: How many pages comprise this section? Does it include drills for developing the requisite skill set for groundfighting? Does it address submission holds? Does it address the critical question of "position before submission"? How many pages does it dedicate to stangulation? Does it differentiate between "air" and "blood" chokes? Does it address the important issue of weapons and groundfighting? Is it comprised of grappling with and without the gi...or does it show both? Does it address both sportive and non-sportive applications? A "section" doesn't sound like adequate coverage for a subject as vast as groundfighting...is there other approved ITF literature on this subject or is this particular section considered to be the definitive word on ITF groundfighting? I'd appreciate any info you can pass along...I may have to get a copy of this thing...how much are they? These next two are fascinating. "I know some of the "best fighters in the history of TKD", which is only 50years old, and I can assure you that they are quite capable of ground fighting." "Since thetechniques in Taekwon-Do were designed for doing the maximum damage to aperson in unarmed combat a fact that has been proven numerous times, and has it’s roots in Taek Kyon and Soo Bak-Gi which dates back to 37 B.C." Sir, with all due respect...which is it? And yes...I see the word "roots" contained in the second statement. It never ceases to amaze me how some still claim these ancient (and unsubstantiated) martial roots from 2000 years ago, but fail to mention the obvious (and much more recent, AND documented) influence of Funakoshi Sensei's Karate-Do. Did General Choi leave all that 2nd Dan knowledge and skill in Japan before returning to Korea in order to pick up where the ancient's left off, or do we admit the technical influence of Karate-DO...one more time...Karate-DO...as in way...as in budo...as in bugei for the masses...as in NON-COMBATIVE. That's all I'll say on that...I'd appreciate it if you'd pass along the requested info about the article, and address my very simple questions about the encyclopedia. Other than that...this is a dead issue with me, sir. I apologize to Mr. Terry if my comments are out of order, or have created any ill will among the members of this fine list. _____________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:09:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Craig Stovall is not Big Ken Mr. Stovall stated, in part,: Response: Mr. Stovall, I appreciate your comments. I have been laying low lately with various projects. I was kicked off the TKD net, in part, for echoing the same comments you outline in your excellent analysis. Expect a few ardent traditional TKD practitioners to try and stick a nice bamboo pole in one of your orifices for stating such outrageous comments, re: traditional TKD may not be the most effective art in a "street" confrontation. High Kicks, breaking boards, and those fab aero kicks are readily extrapolated to Broadway and 42nd Street ? Right ! You outline a keen insight into my readings and thoughts. Tony Blauer, Professor James, et al., appear to be on the same page as you. What is wrong with taking a traditional martial art and adapting it to modern day urban (or now even rural) America ? You can watch the 7 Samurai and have a nice feeling, then switch to Taxi Driver (with DiNero) and have a different result. By the way, just got back from the hills of West Virginia. Your right, I used my CJ-7 Jeep in the backcountry. I left my Buick Century in the driveway. Different vehicles for different roads travelled. Keep the posts coming but do not expect completely open minds. Caveat: Before I get flamed I outline this disclaimer, re: I admire and respect traditional martial arts, the history surrounding those respective arts, and the philosophy intertwined with those arts. Nevertheless, I recognize and understand those independent thinkers who wish to expand or enhance their respective martial art by enveloping their teachings with modern day combat systems. Combat systems which reflect, as DeNiro would say, "the rain that washes away the scum" of our society who are predators in our non-traditional streets. In sum, keep your alerts on yellow, never green. Back to projects. Cheers, McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:24:34 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #764 In a message dated 12/9/00 6:41:13 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << The ATA is not a member of the ITF. Never said they were. You are confusing the practices of a single school with the actions of an entire organization. We all can find schools of what ever art that are too soft, too hard, not professional, to cold, or what ever. I could name quite a few form a variety of styles that are not up to the standards that I would expect. >> New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:27:42 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #764 In a message dated 12/9/00 6:41:13 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Wonder what the martial artists of the old days fought and bickered about like a bunch of children when there were no organizations? >> When were the old days? New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:37:08 EST Subject: the_dojang: Knife attacks Are knife attacks becoming more common or just now catching my attention? About a month ago in a small town 15 miles away a man was killed in a knife attack. This past Sunday, my 24 year old cousin who lives in Glendale, Az was stabbed. He was at his friends house when another friend come over. This friend owed him $40. My cousin Nathan asked "do you have something for me?". The "friend" said yes I do, pulled a blade, stabbed and sliced. Cut the colon, intestines and liver. He was almost DOA, but survived. I spoke with him last night, he's in tremendous pain but also in good spirits. No, no drugs involved. The attacker had just found out that his girl was out with someone else and my cousin was the first available outlet for his frustration! They still haven't caught the assailant. gary pieratt Texas ------------------------------ From: TaoArt@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 01:29:23 EST Subject: the_dojang: Self Defense vs Martial Arts At our facility, we teach two distinctly separate classes: 1) Martial Arts (mixed system) and 2) Self Defense The difference between the two: Martial Arts: We study Kata, Basic forms (in appropriate stances), Grappling, Kicks, Philosophy, Board Breaking, Meditation, Sparring with specific rules of conduct and safety, all performed in a clean, orderly environment while in uniforms and addressing each other as "sir" or ma'am" and all the ritual etiquette. There are belt testings, required reading, research papers, and wonderful discussions about living "the way". Discipline, honor, loyalty and other internal codes are incorporated. Self Defense: We wear street clothes; we fight full contact against Padded Attackers; we soap up the mats to learn how to fight on slippery surfaces; we fight multiple assailants (none of whom wait their turn); we swear alot and never use niceties; we study and discuss the physiological effects of Epinephrine (Adrenaline): Tunnel Vision, Audio Exclusion, Tachipsychia, Increased Respiration, Loss of Fine Motor Skills, etc; we roleplay assault by *KNOWN* attackers (ie. loved ones whacked out on drugs); we fight blindfolded; we spin around til we are almost too dizzy to stand and then we fight; we train using chairs, books, pens, beer mugs, etc. and we discuss legal ramifications til we are blue in the face. There is tons more, but you get the picture. Those who attend only martial arts are looking for what martial arts provides. Those who attend only self defense are looking for what self defense provides. Interestingly enough... most attend both. No big surprise since our school motto is "In Pursuit of Balance". Call it what you will, People. All that matters is that you get what you need from your class... and more importantly... that you *know* what it is you need. Meghan Gardner Guard Up, Inc. of Waltham, MA www.GuardUp.com "Always carry love in your heart and a knife in your pocket." me ------------------------------ From: "S. H. Wee" Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:31:25 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Titles, life, and it's a Good Day to Die! But we have "Ph.d" and "M.D." behind the name to tell the public what kind of Doctor they are. Maybe we should add "TD" (Technical Dan), "AD" (Administrative Dan) and "FD" (Financial Contributor Dan). Regards & Merry Christmas S. H. Wee > From: LAHapkido@aol.com > Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:22:37 EST > Subject: the_dojang: Titles, life, and it's a Good Day to Die! > > ......I can remember not that long ago, when one was much more interested in > training and the applicable use of the Martial Art skill that they were > trying to perfect. The question was asked What's the reason for obtaining the > title of Master, Grandmaster? Well, would it be fair to say that in order to > obtain the skills required for the affore mentioned titles, one should have > reached that level of understanding. With that being said, I feel that titles > are important in all faucet of life. Would you go to a Dentist if he was not > a graduate of an accredited College of Dentistry? How would you know if he > did not have the Title Dr. of Dentistry attached to his name? Call it ironic > but the average person will give respect to an individual that has Ph.D. > attached to their and refer to them as Dr. because it is what they were > taught to be the right thing to do........ ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 08:41:29 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #761 Dear Chris and Ray: Shame on you both!! Are your memories so short that you have forgotten the MA expertise (or lack thereof) of Hans Solo the MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E.? And what about SECRET AGENT MAN? Best Wishes, Bruce W (atches too much TV) Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 08:57:26 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: More about GM (the leader not the car) Dear Rudy: You mean I don't have to even have the GM in the room with me? Is this one of those things where I send in a video tape of me doing techniques? I bet it doesn't reduce the fee though, does it? Damn, where do I sign up? It is truly amazing that for all the individuals who purport to hold a "GM-ship" how little the matter of social engineering gets played. I have been on these Nets for a little while, and have come to believe that individuals would much rather talk about NHB and "street fight" efficacy than what their responsibilities are to the community. I know that tracing Korean heritage can get to be a pain in the butt now and again. I notice that quite conveniently the one piece that gets lost repeatedly is that the Korean warriors of old were expected to be both well-trained AND well-educated. The intent seems to have been the training of a cadre' capable of intervening both in community/administrative issues as well as effectiveness on the battlefield. Sure is curious how this little tidbit get lost in all the whooplah about whose is the REAL MA and whose is just wannabee. BTW: When I first started teaching and was interacting quite a bit with MA suppliers I routinely got materials from MA organizations asking if I wanted to join. I responded to each about the way that I am sharing now and regarding the same issues. One by one they stopped writing and I have not heard from them since. So much for the quality of the MA leadership, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 09:20:56 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Credentials and responsibilities Dear David: I want to go on record as saying from the start that this bickering about credentials is not just tedious but counter-productive. In some ways I think its almost a redirection that a magician might use. If we focus on the title we don't ever have to get around to talking about what these people DO. I am not looking to validate one persons' claim to the top of the anthill over another. But I think that someone somewhere along the line needs to start hold the leadership accountable for doing more than coming to a test and sitting at a table for a couple of hours. In the US we routinely expect a return on our memberships for the fees that we pay or the time that we invest. Some bank raises its fees two dollars and we raise hell. When the CTA here in Chicago raises its fares all hell breaks loose, and I don't even want to talk about what happens if there is a move to change routing of the buses! If your dentist or doctor raise their fees you start looking around for another MD or DDS, yes? I don't think its too much to ask the individuals with the classy titles to pony-up in the leadership department and give the schools doing the grunt-work some help and support. I promise to stop ranting about commercialism in MA when the commercial interests of the MA begin to show some respect to the peons who got them where they are (and keep them there) by changing their goals and deportment. Growling all the way, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: YMCATKD@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:34:10 EST Subject: the_dojang: Every style has its + & -- Hello all, Its my opinion that every style has its good and bad points. Some styles are better at one "subject" of martial arts while others are better another "subject" of martial arts. I practice and teach TKD and a style very similar to Kuk Sool Won, called Kung Jung Mu Sool......not related to the school in California. In either case I have trained in both sport and traditional TKD. My experience has showed me that a fight or sparring is a relationship between two people. Learning how to read the other party, react in a clear and automatic fashion is learned far better in sport TKD. This is due to the heavy emphasis on sparring. So I would say sport TKD teaches the relationship of the fight, the basic strategies etc very well. Does this mean TKD is the ultimate? I dont think so. TKD does have holes in its training such the basic sport TKD premise of after a kick to put the kick down and lean the body in so as not to leave the opponent a scoring area to kick. This of course is a great idea if you are sparring under sport rules however my concern is that if they fail to strike their target hard enough than the opponent on the street will just punch the person in the face. In sport, punching to the face is not allowed but on the street that is the prime objective. Many times I have discussed this topic and others have said that if a sport TKD practioner gets into a fight on the street than they will just punch to the face since they would not have any rules against it. I do not disagree, although many, feel the sport TKD stylist would not as they are conditioned not too. My concern for the sport stylist on the street is that they will judge distance to their opponent by the kicks and not give strong enough consideration to the opponents hands. If they lean in trying to get their torso close enough to their opponent so that a kick to scoring area is not possible, than a punch to the face would be possible. As for TKD kicks to head on the street not being effective.....I personally would probably not use a kick to the head however I know sport TKD people that definitely can. As for the latest fade of Brazian Jujitsu.....we as martial artists should not strive to copy everthing that comes out but train in our own style. My opinion is that each style has its own ways of dealing with each situation. Brazian Jujitsu is not the grand ultimate......it just has some very motivate people training in that style right now. I think if any of these aggressive Brazlian Jujitsu practioners had learned another style, they would still be tuff as nails. Respectfully, Andy ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:17:02 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #765 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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