From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #768 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 12 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 768 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #766 the_dojang: Schools in NY area the_dojang: Re: Every style has its + and - the_dojang: Re: Windows Haiku the_dojang: Re: nha news the_dojang: Re: nha requirements the_dojang: RE:Ed Sell and Dan Signatures the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #763 the_dojang: RE: Verify Certificate the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #766 the_dojang: RE: Every style has it's + and - the_dojang: RE: deserving respect [none] the_dojang: You mean I'm NOT Big Ken?!?! the_dojang: Chin Mu Kwan Roll Call the_dojang: Re: Belts and Rank the_dojang: Hapkido History the_dojang: Respect the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #755 the_dojang: When are they ready the_dojang: Re: KHF and Kidohae the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #766 the_dojang: RE:So lets take a look at this the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:29:41 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #766 Ray mentioned: Interestingly, if you go back to some of the early Avengers episodes, you'll see Honor Blackman as Steed's partner, Mrs. Catherine Gale. Honor later appeared as one of the early Bond Girls as Pussy Galore in Goldfinger. Anyway, Honor was supposedly a Dan rank in Judo. Yep -- she also had out a book on Women's self-defense called "Honor Blackman's Book of Self-Defense" or some such. Watch for it on ebay -- you can pick it up for about $10 or less there. Now what about "Paladin" from back in the 1950s? Anybody remember the martial arts in that one? :) Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:49:30 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Schools in NY area A small question to those of you living or having friends in New York City; a student of mine is going to visit his aunt in the U.S. next summer. He will stay there for two months or so and he would also like to train there and maybe enter a small tournament or two. He is 12, 2nd Kup WTF TKD, not really a competition fighter, but an avid fan of Poomsae and Hosinsul. If you could recommend somebody I could send the boy to, I would be grateful if you contact me privately. Affiliation and style is not really important - - USTU, AAU, Hapkido, as long as the school is good. Thank you in advance, and best regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:40:18 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Every style has its + and - > Even given the dreamland scenario of unlimited > choice, how many of us knew enough about martial arts prior to joining a > school that would have allowed us to make an intelligent choice as to what > kind of "stylist" we were going to become? I often joke with some of my > friends who happen to be hardline fundamentalist Christians over the fact > that they would have made great Muslims had they grown up in > Tehran...unfortunately some of them don't share my love of irony:) Great line! The situation was exactly the same with me. At first, I just wanted to do martial art of any kind. I went to the Wing Chun school but the classes clashed with my school. Then I tried to join the local Kyokushin club but for some reason I didn`t. Seeing an advert for ITF TKD school, I tried to reach them by phone umpteen times but no-one was there in business hours, so I got really upset... And finally I found myself in a WTF TKD school, and the rest is history ;) As for the availability of martial arts today, I spoke with my fellow instructor during our summer camp. He said we can really envy our students the opportunities they have. When we were coloured belts, there was no equipment, no videotapes, seminars were held each two years or so, nobody knew too much about physiology, sports theory etc. (and my knees are the living proof of it ;), we couldn`t go abroad to study, and the first book on Taekwondo was published here two years after I started training. I really started travelling to seminars, tournaments abroad, seeing and learning from other styles etc. when I was already instructor myself. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Migukyong@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:13:50 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Windows Haiku I forget who had the haiku but it was awesome... an accurate :) ------------------------------ From: Migukyong@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:18:44 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: nha news ok now everyone has the nha schedule and they can meet with Dr. Hackworth personally and train with him, to find out if he is the real deal or not. from my point of view, go and see.. that is the only way you find out, since meeting the khf requirements and being tested by the khf is not good enough. Master Frank Clay KTMS US Representative www.ktms.net ------------------------------ From: Migukyong@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:21:21 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: nha requirements ds, this is a refresher course not an all encompassing course... you know like remedial or in service training that most professions have? but hey, no matter how much you try to help out your members or others, i guess some one is gonna complain. frank ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:48:30 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Ed Sell and Dan Signatures <> I never said my USCDKA Rank did not have GM Sell's signature I said my Kukkiwon doesn't have his signature - it has Un Yong Kim's. :) Michael Rowe ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:57:07 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #763 <> Well, lets see here, how to phrase this. In Korea officers must have a 1st dan certificate in taekwondo or hapkido. The certificates accepted are the following: Kukkiwon Korea Hapkido Federation Kido Hae. ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:00:11 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Verify Certificate <> 1> Write number down 2> Write Kukkiwon or Call 3> Ask about certified Ranking for individual and certificate number. Its now verified. Michael Rowe K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple and Straightforward) ------------------------------ From: "donna galster" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:06:14 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #766 Chris, perhaps the vulcan neck pinch is not a pressure point technique, but pressure points is a martial arts skill to learn. Every kick, block, punch has a target. Some more deadly than others if you apply it to the right area. I do not know much about pressure points, but I am sure a few others on this list could educate you on that area and agree that pressure points is a part of martial arts. Donna >From: "Christopher Spiller" >Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:23:03 -0000 >Subject: the_dojang: Re: Vintage Star Trek MA > > >From: Tkdsusan@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:22:45 EST Subject: > >the_dojang: Vintage Star Trek MA > > > >Chris, the vision of Captain Kirk's > >'two-hands-clasped-smack-on-the-shoulder' certainly brings back memories! > > >From: "donna galster" > >As far as Captain Kirk, you forgot to mention the judo rolls. Not to > >mention, Spock's amazing pressure point techniques. > > > >Donna > >To both Susan and Donna, > >I did NOT mention mr. Spock's Vulcan Grip because that's not an example of a >REAL Martial Art skill. See, it wasn't gained after Mr. Spok trained for >years in a MA style that was 1,000's of years old only to discover it was a >scant 50 years old and had no real combat applications so he decided to >cross train in other MA's (that would seem to have very similar problems) to >come up with the best techniques against any opponent, anywhere, any time. >Nope, it's just a result of him being a Vulcan (and only 1/2 a Vulcan at >that!). If that Vulcan grip had been a REAL Martial Art skill, I surely >would have included it ;-). Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:57:13 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Every style has it's + and - Craig, I have to agree with Andy on his last point of not trying copy everything that comes out. Every style definitely has its strengths and weaknesses and by understanding these we learn to deal with the strength and weaknesses of our own style and that on an opponent's. There are already far to many "jacks of all trades and masters of none" out there who threw a little of this and a little of that in and came out with basically nothing because they had not truly learned how to use any of it. Because you practice one style does not mean you are ignorant of the rest. Understanding what you have learned in your own style and how to apply it against different styles is what I believe is the important part of training. IMHO Respectfully, Rich > ------------------------------ > > From: "Craig Stovall" > Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:14:20 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: RE: Every style has it's + and - > > Andy, > > Regarding your post "Every style has its + & --"...bravo for a great > post...I agree with much of what you say at least in spirit. However, you > ended with a comment that I can't help but address...not for the sake of > argument, but perhaps to inspire some additional thought. > > You write: > > "As for the latest fade of Brazian Jujitsu.....we as martial artists > shouldnot strive to copy everthing that comes out but train in our own > style." > > First of all, I respect those who are loyal to their particular style or a > particular instructor as long as that loyalty doesn't interfere with the > individuals long-term development. Loyalty is a healthy trait in the proper > perspective...no doubt about it. Now having said that, I can't help but > address the idea of "our own style". I'll be quite honest with you. The > only reason I got inolved in TKD to begin with is because I wanted to study > martial arts, and the only available school at that time taught TKD. Even > if I had had a more diverse selection...who's to say I would have ended up > at a Wing Chun academy as opposed to a TKD dojang. I guess the point I'm > trying to make is that the only reason most of us carry the battle flag of a > particular "style" is because we just happened to end up associating > ourselves with that "style" due to geographic constraints or some other > limiting factor. Even given the dreamland scenario of unlimited choice, how > many of us knew enough about martial arts prior to joining a school that > would have allowed us to make an intelligent choice as to what kind of > "stylist" we were going to become? I often joke with some of my friends who > happen to be hardline fundamentalist Christians over the fact that they > would have made great Muslims had they grown up in Tehran...unfortunately > some of them don't share my love of irony:) > > Why in the world would you impose the self-limiting paradigm of "not copying > everything that comes out"? Now, I'm not suggesting that you go out and try > to learn everything that's available...the practical limitations of that > undertaking are quite apparent. But the simple fact of the matter is that > there is NO better time to be a martial artist than right now. There is SO > much information out there in the form of literature, multimedia, and > training opportunities as compared to just a few short years ago. Why limit > yourself to one "style" when there is so much to learn that will help you > grow not only as a "martial artist", but, more importantly...as an > individual? The most damaging limitations are the ones that we impose on > ourselves. Your development as an individual can NEVER be entrusted with a > guru, sifu, sensei, or master...that task can only entrusted with you. Once > you've bought into the paradigm of "style", I believe you've entrusted that > task with the former...IMHO. Again, nothing wrong with loyalty...but it > must be approached with caution. > > "Breach the walls of tradition and authority. Free yourself from the > conditioning that oppresses your mind" Krishnamurti > > Good luck with your training, and thanks for sharing your excellent post. > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:54:39 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: deserving respect > From: "White Lotus" > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:49:32 -0800 > Subject: the_dojang: Respect and Rank > > Hello, > > Respect for yourself leads to respect for others. When you see someone > and > they produce the "I don't respect them" or "they are not worthy of > respect" > reaction in you, then it is a good signal for you to look deeply within > yourself. Everyone is worthy of respect regardless of their rank. > > Best to All and Happy Holidays! > > Mark White Lotus Well said. Kerry ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:20:06 -0600 Subject: [none] David writes: "how long till they could handle multiple attackers, special environments like ice or sudden darkness/light, etc?" In regards to the issue of multiple attackers, the simple answer is never. IMHO, the ability to deal with multiple attackers is one of those merry myths that is perpetuated throughout the martial arts world. These days I have to be careful not to drink beverages when reading martial arts magazines. Too many times have I spewed the contents of my mouth across the pages of a freshly minted magazine upon seeing the image of some wisened old master simultaneously wrist-locking two large assailants, or THROWING three attackers at once. No disrespect intended towards you for posing the question because it IS a valid question. Unfortunately, my limited experience has failed to reaffirm the proposition that any type of training will give you a statistically significant advantage over two motivated predators, much less three or more. Now, if you are 6' 5" and weigh 300 lbs of twisted steel, then your chances against two "normal" sized humans are not that bad...especially considering that you have some amount of training. However, when you start to even out the physical attributes it gets ugly VERY fast. Forget about the physical...the psychological dynamics of facing two or more people is downright paralyzing. Now, for those who think Craig is talking out of his rear-end...I'll add a few caveats. 1. I have trained in systems (Kali, Silat) that seek to transmit the necessary skills to survive when outnumbered. 2. I have participated in numerous flight sessions against multiple attackers where full-contact striking and grappling were permitted. 3. I was once attacked by three people at a public park (two males and one female), and I was the one that "won" the fight...much to their embarrassment...but hey...THEY started it. So bearing in mind that I've trained this stuff, and have even experienced it in real time...FORGET ABOUT IT. IMHO, your ability to survive a mass attack is directly proportional to your ability to outrun the competition. Run away, and live to fight, and all that good rot. Sprint training is the most valuable thing you can do if you expect to find yourself in this scenario. BTW, I thought Meghan's response to your question was pretty darned good. Kudos to her for highlighting the psychological dynamics, and motivating factors that go a long way in answering this type of question. ____________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:15:08 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: You mean I'm NOT Big Ken?!?! Ken, Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. In addition to those, you wrote: "You outline a keen insight into my readings and thoughts. Tony Blauer, Professor James, et al., " I'm not quite certain who you're referring to when you make mention of "Professor James", unless of course you are referring to David James and the Vee Jitsu Te system. If so, I'm not overly familiar with his work, but have read some very good reviews about his video "Vee Jitsu Te for the Street". Of course, most will probably be more familiar with Mr. James' instructor, Florendo Visitacion...truly an innovator in the world of martial arts. I'm confident his sound tutelage is reflected in the works and abilities of Mr. James. I'll keep a sharp eye out for those bamboo poles you mentioned:) _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:28:36 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Chin Mu Kwan Roll Call A long time ago, in a small town that seems like a galaxy away...I started my little journey in all things "martial" in a TKD club affiliated with the Chin Mu Kwan TKD Federation. I was just curious if there were any other present or former CTF members posting or lurking on this fine list. If so, please let yourself be known...I'd love to catch up on the goings on within the CTF...who's who, what's the membership look like, still doing the blue cottage forms, any technical innovations or changes, etc? I haven't been affiliated with the CTF in an official capacity since around 1991 since moving on to different studies...it would be like a fond trip down memory lane. Thanks _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:10:48 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Belts and Rank I just came across this quote regarding belts/rank in martial arts. "A person who practises a martial art values the relationship with others. Consequently the tradition of respecting seniority with courtesy has been valued. That is why we needed a belt to tell the level of learning. Compare martial arts with marathon or boxing.The former needs more of hereditary conditions than teaching from seniors to be the gold medalist. And the latter does not care about seniority if the stronger one can beat down the other." Regards Robert Martin ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:25:32 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido History Mssr. Sims and Rogers (and interested others), I had the opportunity to speak with GM Bong Soo Han this weekend. I mentioned to him the heightened, more focused interest in Hapkido History and other issues that have come up in this forum. I don't believe it an invasion of his privacy if I share this one statement from our conversation. "People should worry less about the history of Hapkido, and more about its future." I understand that his statement is unlikely to satiate the historian, but IMHO it goes a long way to providing guidance to those active in the art, and it should be the overwhelming guidance for those promoting. Getting in the Way, Patrick _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:02:53 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Respect Dear Donna, >So, what do you expect me to do Patrick?< I would hope that you would be respectful. There are many people with the unfortunate opinion that the title "Master" means you are no longer human. That somehow they can never be wrong, or be buttheads. You have found out that Masters are human. You control your attitude towards that fact. "Martial Respect" is something you choose to offer based upon rank. Rank is usually a factor of Martial knowledge and perseverence. IMHO you should provide deference to their opinions on Martial training, technique and studio ettiquete (not intended to be all inclusive). >Don't stick your nose up at me and act Master-like or you will not get >results from me. To me, it would be like those stuck up prissies in high >school. Not worth my time or money to train with.< This is an unfortunate statement. If this is how you see your (all?) Masters, then you might consider leaving the Oriental Arts. >The cool thing is, eventionally the word gets around and unless they >change, they weed themselves out.< I believe you are mistaken on this account. I have been in the arts for 28 years, I believe that more frequently kind, caring Masters get cheated out of their schools by non-paying, lazy, rationalizing students. I do not know the particulars of your situation, and therfore my comments are not directed at you, but are offered as alterantive thinking to your position. Getting in the Way, Patrick _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: ICyrus8528@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:23:07 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #755 Mr. Hackworth: I meet you briefly in Florida in early September at the WHFSC annual gathering. You stated in a recent post to the list that you know of two individuals who were 4th or 5th dan not more than three years ago that is now claiming to 8th or 9th dan issued by Kido Hae. If this is true, I would like to know who they are. I am only aware of three individuals that were officially promoted to 8th dan by GM Suh in the last three years. They are John Pellegrini, Serge Baubil of Laval, Quebec, Canada, and myself. I have come to know GM Suh personally. I have found him to be a man of great integrity and one who possess a high moral standard. Therefore, I find it difficult to believe that he would grant rank to individuals who are are not properly qualified. So, please enlighten me. Best Regards, Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster Int'l Chosondo Federation ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:33:08 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: When are they ready IMHO it takes about 10 minutes to teach someone the techniques to defend themselves effectively. However - If they come in fully capable and mentally ready - then you shouldn't teach those to them for three years (if ever). If they come in sheepish and mentally uneager - then it will take about three years (if ever) to get them to use them. Getting in the Way, Patrick _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Steve Seo Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:49:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: KHF and Kidohae Dear list members, I have not been able to post a message on the Dojang Digest because I have been in Montreal, Canada for the past few days with GM In Sun Seo and master Scott Seo. We had a wonderful seminar for Master Serge Baubil and his students in the Quebec area. Unfortunately,this cannot simply be a posting about martial arts and the great experience we had in Canada. When I checked my email today, I saw several disurbing postings, most distressing being the posting regarding the Korea Hapkido Federation taken from Yong Ki Song. I translated these postings for GM In Sun Seo and I must say that he was outraged, to say the very least. I will translate the key points he made regarding this matter. Similar statements concerning KHF and Kidohae were made in Korea this year by the Korea Hapkido Federation in Korean newspapers stating that they were the only recognized Hapkido organization and the the Kidohae was a Chinese martial arts organization. Following these comments, the Kidohae, made there own statement in Korean newspapers stating the truth. In fact, the Kidohae charter recognizes the Kidohae as the governing body of Hapkido. Furthermore, GM Seo stated that anyone stating otherwise were blantantly lying and such statements would cause grounds for an immediate law suit. Rest assured, any such public comments from KHF have since stopped in Korea. The point is that persons stating such misinformation are lying, and they too are subject immediate legal action. If anyone doubts the validity and legitimacy of the Kidohae as the first government recognized martial arts(Hapkido) organization, simply contact the Korean Government(c/o the Ministry of Culture and Tourism). Moreover, GM In Sun Seo knows Oh Se Lim of the KHF and knows that mister Oh would not be so misinformed(and quite honestly stupid enough) to continue to lie to the public. GM Seo knows him personally and told me to tell let him know if Mister Oh indeed has made such comments himself. As for Yong Ki Song, I do not know where he is coming from. I can only surmise that either he is misinformed or blatantly lying. On a side note, the head martial arts instructor of the Korean Blue house, master Chang Soo Ok is a registered eigth dan of the Kidohae. Moreover, the Kido is and has been the oldest certification body for Korean police officers and law enforcement organizations. The Kidohae has been certifying since the 60's, the KHF has had that privilege only since 1990. I apologize for the length of this posting, but I believe that truth is very important and I felt that it needed to be told. Once again, I do not make these comments with no proof. The Kidohae has been register since 1963 as the governing body for Korean Martial Arts. This fact is undisputable and the records are kept by the Korean government. If someone states otherwise, and the truly believe that they are correct, feel free to email me privately. Furthermore, for those who think the Kidohae has been giving out "inflated" dans, talk to me. Email me and we'll discuss this topic. Every high ranking master in the Kido deserves respect and I can personally vouch for them. If you have problem with them, that is your perogative. However, if you have a problem with the Kidohae, and begin to make negative comments about us, that becomes my problem. So, like I stated before, email me or visit my school in Fremont and we can discuss any matter you want. Steve Seo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:36:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #766 Dear Net-kas: Mrs. Midwest Hapkido roasted me good for mixing up Napolean Solo and Hans Solo. She plays TRIVIAL PURSUIT "for keeps" and does not suffer "light weights" such as myself easily. :-) BTW: I had forgotten about WILD,WILD,WEST. The more recent series LA FEMME NIKITA has its moments as well. On the other hand I have seen the fight scene with Benny the Jet in GROSS POINT BLANK quite a few times now. The man IS good! Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:34:36 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:So lets take a look at this Dear Rudy: I was tickled to see your response follow the material forwarded by Ray concerning the National Hapkido Assn. Apparently our moderator is not without a sense of irony, yes? At least it made it convenient to flip up and down the page and compare what the organization is offering compared to what you and I were discussing about various failings of such organizations. I don't suppose that anyone can fault goals such as "provide technical support", "help true Hapkido practitioners learn and grow," and "promote a fraternal relationship." And I am glad to see that the organization will improve skills of, test, service and benefit its members. We can always use this. I guess I am wondering why it is that we need yet another organization to do this. If one wants certification and training oversite are not the WHF, KHF, WKF, HRD and SM Hapkido enough? If one is of a more traditional bent, what about the JangKi Kwan or Han Pul. I don't think you can get much more traditional philosophically than that. At least the people of this organization have published a brief history. I don't put a lot of stock in all of this "the mantle was passed to me"-stuff. As we all know, there is no actual patri-linear succession tradition in the Korean arts.(Sme might even say that is part of the problem. ) But at least this way we can take the name of the individual and find it in the lineage published on GM Lims' website and identify this individual as a legitimate practitioner. That's' a lot more than what can be done with many originators of organizations these days. Of course there are little naggy things that stick with me. Stictly speaking a kwan is not a style as much as it is a particular groups'take on something. By way of extension you can't really call it an "art". I know, I'm just being argumentative. Hey, let somebody drop YOU on you head a few thousand times and see how crabby YOU get :-) !! When I read the history what I gather from this is that GM Yong traveled to Taegu to train with GM Choi but apparently received his recognition as a kwan from GM Ji after GM Ji went off to do his own thing (after 1963) and finally broke off to start his own show in 1997. Once again I start wondering why, if someone wanted a traditional organization dedicated to traditional Korean MA, did it mean having to start a new organization. GM Kimm, He-young (has the HanMuDo) is an internationally recognized authority on traditional grappling arts and has written and published extensively on it. GM Seo, GM Myung (both Jae-num and Kwang Sik) has his own organization both dedicated to MA research and development. And all of these organizations have an emphasis on weapons as well as empty-hand techniques. I suspect, though, that the only real issue in all of this, though is the matter of where the money goes, yes? Would that be why the author of this particular site was able to make a statement " NHA is the national governing body for Hapkido in America." I'm not sure that is exactly true---except, pehaps, according to that particular organization. To tell you the truth, Rudy, I was kinda hoping to find something about that video tape offer you mentioned. Do you suppose that if I go to the head of the organization with my little gaggle of students and offer to sign them all up into this NHA that they will give me an appropriate rank conmensurate with my new found status as the head of a branch of their organization? Of course, I would still need to borrow a videocamera from someone, yes? By way of extension perhaps if I then were to go to the ICHF and offer to move my stalwart band over to them, then I could get the next higher rank as I would be presenting under the rank just given me by the NHA, yes? Did you have any thoughts on the MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT? I noticed that included the usual claim to exclusivity. That has become pretty much standard fare for this sort of thing, hasn't it? Does the Korean Governmentactually have an office that provides recognition to such things? I was wondering if I went to the Korean Consulate here in Chicago, how do you suppose I would go about getting in contact with such an office to check something like that out. Unfortunately I don't speak Korean so I won't be calling LD to talk to someone. But I was curious who I would contact to find out about such things. I was sure that there were a couple other organizations which made similar claims. Do you know anything about this? I wonder why the KiDoHae and the Korean Hapkido Federation have not been given a chance to climb in under this government-recognized umbrella. As the president says, "...There are many fine instructors who are not affiliated with the KHF. However, they have an obligation to themselves and their students to belong to the appropriate, Legitimate Hapkido organization. Do you suppose that GM Yong has sent out invitations to GM Seo, and Myung, and Lim and the rest of the many organizations reminding them of their obligations? Wouldn't it be in the best interests of these various individuals to belong to the one Legit organization? Wouldn't it be best for all Hapkido practitioners to have just one organization? Where do you suppose all the money would go from all those members and all those organizations once they were under this organization? Do you suppose that things would be fundamentally better for everyone joining GM Yongs' federation? More importantly Rudy, do you think that this is the kind of organization that would have listened to you suggestions that were ignored by that other individual you mentioned regarding testing. And most importantly, Do you thinkGM Yong would be able to find time to look at my video tape? For a fee, I mean..." Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:53:46 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #768 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.