From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #772 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 14 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 772 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Tongue-in-cheek critique the_dojang: Who is recognized as official? Who cares?/Verifying Dan ranks the_dojang: Re: Teaching Kids the_dojang: Moo Ye Do the_dojang: Hapkido History the_dojang: Some clarification concerning my position. the_dojang: Re: Chuck Norris the_dojang: Re: Kyuk Too Ki Re: the_dojang: Re: Kyuk Too Ki the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:08:12 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Tongue-in-cheek critique Chris wrote: "What I was trying to convey in my last post was a tongue-in-cheek critique of an argument going on in the digest about how some Taekwon-Do is "real" and some is not and that to be proficient in self-defense one has to study "real" self-defense, not Martial Arts." Well, since I was involved in that "argument" as you say, I feel compelled to respond. Frankly, I don't recall anyone making the assertion that in order to gain fighting ability someone had to study "real self-defense" as opposed to "martial arts". My own contribution to that "argument" was more of a technical critique of TKD's curriculum within the context of a real-world physical confrontation. I realize your critique wasn't leveled squarely at me, and it's not the purpose of this post to "call you out". However, I would appreciate it if you'd take the time to express your thoughts in regards to "self-defense vs. martial arts". I assume that you have some opinion on this or you would not have taken the time to interject your comment. Perhaps we could all learn something from your thoughts on this subject. Regards. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:25:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Who is recognized as official? Who cares?/Verifying Dan ranks Ok now Frank is going to get into a peeing contest with Seo. This will be fun. A representative of the KHF has stated that they are the only Korean government recognized hapkido federation. One of two things are going wrong here. 1) A misinterpretation of what is being said. i.e.-WTF is the only "recognized" taekwondo in Korea by the government however, ITF does exist there as well. Could it be the same thing happening here. That there are many federations that are registered with the government, but "official" HKD is found in the KHF? 2) Please Mr. Seo correct me if I am wrong on this. Is the Kido Hae recognized as a Hapkido federation, Kuk Sul Federation or as a governing body of different arts? Perhaps this is what KHF is trying to claim. Now for the Who Cares part. Who cares what is recognized and what isn't? Here is a check list to think about when debating this issue: 1) Is your instructor a good instructor? 2) Are the techniques practiced in "X" federation effective? 3) Have you compared them with other federations? (If Yes, please move on to number 4, If No stop and quite whinning about whose federation is best or recognized) 4) Instead of getting on an ego trip about your federation being recognized, when comparing with another federation, have you tried to learn something from the other person if they presented something different? You should try to answer Yes to all these questions. If you are answering No to any of them then either get out of martial arts or give yourself a brain enema so that you can clear out the BS and make room for learning. When you are in the street and you have to defend yourself, do you really think the attacker is going to give a rip which federation you are from? Now on to Dan verification. You are able to verify people's Dan rank with their numbers by contacting either the USTU or the WTF in Korea. This is public information. They are ONLY to verify rank and nothing else. On a lighter note. I have hit the big 3-0 today so I am off to have fun. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:45:40 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Teaching Kids >------------------------------ >From: Neal Konecky >I am curious about what people think. What is the largest challenge if >teaching children >MA? I am especially curious to see the responses from different parts of >this country >and from other countries. Please feel free to e-mail me privately if you >prefer. >Neal Konecky Mr. Konecky: Depends on the age. I find with the REALLY young ones (5-7), it's often an attention problem. For a little bit older ones (8-13), it's discipline. Either way, they're just not really focused on what they are doing. I also want to add the qualifier that this a wild generalization. Some kids, no matter what age, are almost as easy to teach as adults (although they are few and far between :). I also want to throw my support behind Mr. Terry and the wonderful list that he runs. Every day there is something on here to make me think about my training, my teaching or my life. He keeps the list running smoothly and respectfully. I have noticed a few posts recently where the poster seemed a little less respectful than normal, but on the whole, everyone treats everyone else quite well and I think that is due in part to Mr. Terry's example. Thank you for your hard work. Happy holidays! Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: David Reed Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:15:55 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Moo Ye Do Anybody ever hear of 'Moo Ye Do'? I understand the derivation of the name but I never heard of it nor its history. Thanks, David ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:45:28 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido History Dear Mr. Sims, >My hope is that GM Han may reconsider his position and contribute his ample skill, knowledge and influence to the research efforts. The need for greater involvement by the Hapkido leadership as well as increased dialogue between US and Korean nationals regarding our art has been long standing and deserves attention.< I do not know if GM Han stated a position, so much as a desire. Let me make sure that everyone understands that what follows is MY point of view. All the GM's can certainly speak for themselves should they so desire. There are those who place an unclarifying premium on the who, what, when, and where, when it is the why that tells all. The more you know the rationale behind the decisions of men, the more you know. True to its very nature, when one person (or association) pushes - Hapkido pulls; when one person or association pulls - Hapkido pushes. Every man who has ever tried to control Hapkido has (and will) fail. I know you dislike vagueness about the past, but I am busy looking toward the future. :) Getting in the Way, Patrick _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:14:46 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Some clarification concerning my position. Richard wrote: "So let me understand you correctly. Never understand what you have already learned, it is most certainly useless compared to the latest greatest trend to hit the martial arts seen. I hate to point out the obvious but if you don't understand what you have and how it may be used then how do you possibly ever even know the strengths and weaknesses it has or for that matter what it is even capable of. Which would most likely be an indication of something you might need." I too detest pointing out the obvious...with all due respect, it is obvious that you are putting words in my mouth. I feel the need to be more clear, because we are obviously not communicating very well. As far as the statement..."never understand what you have already learned"...I fail to find any statements by me that echo or imply that idea. On the contrary, I'd make the challenge that you MUST understand what you have learned...without understanding, learning has not taken place to begin with. Also, I made no assertion that anything was useless when compared to a "trend" or a "fad", perhaps. I am not trying to counsel people to go out and jump on the latest martial bandwagon, or re-invent themselves every so often in order to remain "up to date". Personally, I don't think there's anything new under the sun. In regards to the idea of "latest greatest trends", please remember that what exists as a "trend" in your mind, probably exists as a steadfast tradition in the mind of someone else. The surge in groundfighting popularity is a good example. To the uninitiated, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu may appear to be a new "fad" that will pass in time...the more informed among us know that this type of fighting predates TKD, having been practiced in Brazil since around 1923, and owes its technical roots to the much older Kosen "branch" of traditional Kodokan Judo as taught to Carlos Gracie by Esai Maeda (that's right...BJJ is not "Jiu-jitsu", it's Judo...but that's a whole other issue). Muay Thai is another great example...this type of fighting became very popular in the states during the 1980's...just another fad to many. The fact that this art has been practiced in Thailand for countless decades, much less it's sustained popularity in America, speaks volumes as to it's efficacy as a fighting art...hardly a "fad". The same can be said of TKD, karate, kung-fu, Judo, escrima, silat, ninjutsu...they all rode the crest of popular "trends"...they didn't become more valuable or legitimate with the passage of time or attainment of "establishment". They were ALWAYS valuable, and all existed at one time or another as a "fad" in someone's mind. Nowadays, we have BJJ, Krav Maga, TaeBo...the list goes on. Going back to your original statement: "Understanding what you have learned in your own style and how to apply it against different styles is what I believe is the important part of training. Again, the paradigm of "style" rears its ugly head. The idea of "style vs. style" is a philosophical and practical deadend. We have to be very careful here...are we preparing ourselves to fight against "styles", or are we training to fight against "people"? I've never seen someone attacked by a "style", have you? From the context of fighting, I'm not concerned with how my skill set matches up against "Judo", and "Karate", and "boxing"...as if there were some secret formula to defeating a Judo man every single time, much less if that secret were tucked away somewhere within the confines of "my chosen style". What's critical is how I as an INDIVIDUAL can PERFORM. Style won't impart that...you have to find it on your own. Here's a very important point. There's a clear distinction between dedication and loyalty. Dedication to a particular endeavor brings about rewards in terms of mastery and personal development. Loyalty to an endeavor, on the other hand, limits one's experience and hinders personal development. Once you have become loyal to a system, style, way, or master...you are CAUGHT...you have become subservient to the "thing". Loyalty to a single "style" is no different. By your comments..."Never understand what you have already learned"...you seem to imply that I am opposed to dedication...I am not. What I AM opposed to is the single-minded pursuit of "style" to the exclusion of all others, as if this pursuit will lead to truth or revelation. It never can...because no single "style" encompasses the truth. TKD is the "truth" as seen by General Choi...Judo was the "truth" as seen by Jigoro Kano...Bukti Negara is the "truth" as seen by Paul de Thours...it's THEIR truth...not mine, not yours, not Ray's, or anyone else's. Once you become loyal to a "style", you have accepted someone else's truth...be very careful as to who's truth you accept. As far as your affection for terms like "biomechanics" and "principles", I too appreciate the usage of those terms...in fact, I'd say you're preaching to the choir. I'll only address those concepts in stating that biomechanics and combative principles exist IN SPITE OF style...you write: "Each style definitely contains a set of principles and biomechanics that are unique in one way or another and they do not always work well together if combined." Well, I have just not found that to be true. That's about as nicely as I can put it. The rules of physics do not change depending on whether I'm driving a car or flying an airplane...neither do biomechanics or the reality of physical confrontation change depending on what "style" I'm playing around with. My body is constructed a certain way, I have certain physical attributes, gravity has an effect on my body, punches hurt, groundfighting happens...these are all A PRIORI to the pursuit of "style"...I don't need "style" to understand fighting any more than I need to listen to Mozart in order to understand music. Unless of course, you're convinced that a single style is the "one true way". But hey, that's what 90% of the martial arts community is looking for, right? The ultimate style...the magic bullet...the wisened old master who can teach you the "secrets" of fighting...if only you practice hard...just a little longer...success is guaranteed in 12 easy steps. Baloney. As far as "fitting together", it's true that Shotokan chambered punching doesn't gel too well with Wung Chun trapping...not very efficient. However, I've found that my TKD plays nicely with my Savate, and my boxing mixes very efficiently with my Greco-Roman and Muay Thai plumb fighting. Would I have found this out by following your advice? It's not about what DOESN'T work...it's about what YOU can MAKE work. Richard, I respect your views. From your posts, I can tell that you are a sincere and intelligent individual...a person that has put some thought and consideration into their beliefs, and has more than likely tasted the blood, sweat, and tears of real training. Two things: 1. I'm not trying to change your mind...I'll march off to war in defense of your right to shake your head and laugh at me in pity. 2. I'm not trying to get the last word here. Respectfully, I feel that you misconstrued my statements (perhaps unintentionally), and I felt the need to clarify...I just tend to be verbose when doing so. Anyway, feel free to pick me apart...I've said my piece on this thing, and hopefully have clarified my viewpoint on this subject (and maybe a few others in the process). Good luck. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: RumNCoke220@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:18:01 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Chuck Norris Gary: I'm definitely no history buff, but in Chuck Norris' book "The Secret Power Within," Norris refers to his instructor as Mr. Shin. By the way, that's a pretty good book. I don't read many books about or by martial artists because a lot of it becomes "my style is the best because..." or it's just a lot of self-congratulatory, I'm a big tough guy garbage. This book has none of that. It's all about the lessons we can learn about life through the martial arts. Not a single punch, kick or throw in the whole book. I don't know if I really learned a lot from it, but it's a good peaceful, relaxing, and somewhat mind-opening read. J.T. ------------------------------ From: RumNCoke220@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:33:03 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kyuk Too Ki David, I have never heard of this style, but in my Kuk Sool Won training I learned a set of techniques called Too Ki, which (as I was taught) is translated simply as "throwing techniques." Not much help, but.... J.T. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:09:04 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Kyuk Too Ki I have a copy of a video from Black Belt's Robert W. Young on this style. Looks like a blend of TKD and muay Thai. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:11:19 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #772 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.