From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #781 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 18 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 781 In this issue: the_dojang: Moving the_dojang: Tongue-in-cheek Re: the_dojang: Moving the_dojang: Mr. Burrese's Comments on Groundfighting the_dojang: Dealing with the Bully the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #777 the_dojang: RE: Books and Styles the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "tink73" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:01:49 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Moving Pil Sung All... I haven't been around much in the past couple of months...too many things taking up my time...moving is one of them... I will be moving to Ft. Wayne, Indiana in January (like that was a smart time of year to pick) for a much better career opportunity...I will be looking for someone or someplace to work out when I get there...Hopefully...once I get properly settled...I will start planning on teaching again and opening my own Do Jang...if all works out properly... Any of you subscribers close to Ft. Wayne?...if any of you are near by...drop me a line and let me know...would love to get together, work out, or at least exchange opinions, ideas, and philosophies...whatever...later! The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:18:05 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Tongue-in-cheek Christopher, Thanks for your excellent response. I will only address a few comments. "Taekwon-Do does, in fact contain techniques such as elbow and knee strikes, upper-cuts, hooks, and other close-in punching and kicking techniques." 100% correct, and I am not denying this fact. My clinch fighting critique was more to the point that TKD does not focus on the appropriate measures needed to effectively control a clinch or standing grapple. IMHO, it is not enough to merely say, "Well, if they grab you...just hit 'em". I realize that you are not saying this either, but too many schools teach the dubious belief that striking is "enough". Controlling the tie-up, gaining inside position via underhooks, controlling the arms via two-on-one's, controlling the head, etc...that's what I'm referring to. "You do seem to be quite knowledgeable about what kind of techniques are used by the less desireables out there." Fighting is fighting....doesn't matter if they're a serial killer, biker, or president of the local Rotary Club. Fighting happens on the feet, in the clinch, and on the ground...with striking possible in all three ranges. I don't concern myself with "technique" so much as the ability to deal with the reality of physical confrontation, and I'm not discouraged by those who do not share this view of "reality". "While I would agree with MOST of what you have stated, Taekwon-Do DOES in fact contain some joint locking techniques that can be used to control opponents." Again, you're 100% correct, and I'm not denying this. However, I don't care about "locks" so much as the ability to create dominant position on the ground. Best case scenario...I've locked the guy up and put him on the ground. Worst case scenario...we're both on the ground and I've got to gain a dominant position (mount, side mount, knee-on-chest, north-south), or else take a beating. I'm worried about the latter case...you're on the ground, maybe in a bad position, getting hit...how do you remedy that? By knowing how to grapple against a resisting opponent...not by knowing "locks". TKD is not the best vehicle to learn how to grapple...at least in MY experience. "Frankly, it seems that most of what we should practice for would involve loaded guns with live ammo and various edged weapons with only the occasional club/blunt weapon." Live ammo? I'd rather stay home and play Nintendo, but thanks. LOL!!! "I would be willing to hear suggestions on how to handle this (seriously). Then again, I have not been confronted with a weapon." The Billy Jack bad***es on here will tell you differently, but my advice is simple...run like a raped ape. "As for kicks, they have been VERY effective when I have used them. Again, you don't have to go for flash, but you do have to kick fast and HARD." No denying the effectiveness of kicking, and you echo my personal beliefs that kicks should be low and hard. My problem lies with curriculums that spend too much time on kicking, especially the 360 degree jumping variety. Maybe your's doesn't...that's great. "However, I have practiced takedowns, throws, joint locks, etc. on opponents who have ranged from agreeable and helping to mildly resisting, to really resisting. If you put the time in to practice, these techniques will work. Everywhere? All the time? No. But nothing does that." Where did I say that these techniques DON'T work? I'm ADVOCATING this type of training, not deriding it...I'm confused as to what point you're trying to make. TKD schools, on AVERAGE, spend little time with this type of training...if at all. If your school does these things...my hat is off to you. Kudos. "The average boxer is going to be in better shape than the average judoka" I must disagree. We're talking about two different types of conditioning. It's been my experience that the conditioning developed for striking (boxing, kickboxing) doesn't transmit well to groundwork. They QUICKLY fatigue. Same for the judoka/grapplers. I know guys who have an almost limitless tank on the ground, but get winded awfully quick when they start throwing even basic punches and kicks. Who's in better "shape" depends on what they're doing, and by what standard of "shape" you are holding them too. In my original critique, I made note that TKD COULD be used to defend oneself. It seems that this point has been born out by your personal experience. No denying that. Excellent post. I appreciate your response as it has further stimulated my thinking in these areas. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:12:56 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Moving > I will be moving to Ft. Wayne, Indiana in January (like that was a smart > time of year to pick) for a much better career opportunity...I will be > looking for someone or someplace to work out when I get > there...Hopefully...once I get properly settled...I will start planning on > teaching again and opening my own Do Jang...if all works out properly... I have Inayan Eskrima teaching friends in Ft. Wayne, if you want to try out a different style at some point. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:45:09 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Mr. Burrese's Comments on Groundfighting Mr. Burrese offered some interesting insights. I'd like to offer some counter-points if I may: "In an actual encounter, I don't want to be on the ground in the guard, mount, or any other BJJ or wrestling type hold. I have one goal if I get put to the ground, and that is to get back up as fast as I can." I agree, getting up is a good thing, especially if multiple attackers are involved. However, I will make the argument that the quickest way to do this is to establish positional dominance while still on the ground. How does one get up in an effective manner unless you are in a position to do so? It's quite an easy thing to pop up to a standing position from knee-on-stomach, mount, north-south, cross side, etc. Not easy to do if you're stuck on your back. I realize that the possibility of multiple attackers increases the urgency to get back up, but there's no way to short-cut the process. On the ground, you are either dominating, being dominated, or in the midst of a scramble. Want to get up? Establish dominant position/control, and go from there. Want to stay on the ground? Ignore position/control, and try to find a short-cut. If you find one, I'll be the first to express interest to learn. The goal of getting back up is VERY important...that's why we need workable means to do so. I believe positional dominance and control are vital parts of those means. Not the ENTIRE puzzle, mind you...but VITAL pieces of that puzzle. "I will hit, kick, claw, maim and anything else I have to do get away from the person so I can get back up." Foul tactics are no substitute for the ability to effectively dominate position and control the opponent. Groundfighting involves a lot of different things...escaping positions of disadvantage, establishing positional dominance, immobilizing the attacker, scrambling for position, submission, stangulation, etc. I realize I'm probably preaching to the choir here...but foul tactics are just not enough. One-on-one or multiple attackers...it makes no difference. Please realize that the other guy is just as capable of partaking in punching, eye gouging, hair pulling, and manhood squeezing as you are. I say that the guy who's going to win the battle of foul tactics is the one in the better position. If you're stuck on your back, or face down with the other guy's knee on the back of your head...all the punching, kicking, and maiming in the world won't do you much good. However, if you can wrestle to a dominant position where you can control your opponent...then start gouging, squeezing, and biting all you want. To me, the assumption that you can "hit, kick, claw, and maim" assumes that you have hit the ground in either a neutral or dominant position. Now, if you hit the ground, and find yourself mounted...how do the aforementioned tactics get brought into play? They don't until you escape the position of disadvantage, and establish your own base from which to work. Anything less than that, and you're just assuming that you're a better "eye-gouger" and "groin grabber" than the guy you're fighting...or relying on chance. I realize that Mr. Burrese's comments were made in reference to a multiple attacker situation. I echo his sentiments exactly...the ground is not a nice place to be when the person you're currently engaging has boot-wearing admirers waiting to enter the fray at a moment's notice. My only caution is for people not to get hooked on the idea that controlling position on the ground necessarily implies being locked in a static position or "hold" from which you can't easily transition out of if the need arises. If you rely on foul tactics or the ability to "creat distance", then you may find your stay on the floor a little longer than expected. I urge readers to look into arts like BJJ, Kosen Judo, and Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestling that transmit the skills needed to dominate and control the opponent once the fight hits the ground. I'm sorry if my comments offend, but I have to speak my mind. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:19:03 EST Subject: the_dojang: Dealing with the Bully Mr. Martin, You asked about Dr. Webster Doyle, I had the pleasure of meeting him while at a convention he is very good at what he does and is totally committed to his programs. He has done an enormorous amount of reseach and continues to be the living example of his programs. I strongly reccomend his teachings and have some of his posters in the waiting area at my school. Dan ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:36:22 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #777 I received an interesting response to my inquiry on another Net regarding GM Myung, Jae-num and the World Aikido Federation. ".........Hi, I'm Sung Ju-hwan, Korean Aikikai student & aikido site webmaster. (http://moon.interpia98.net/~aikido it's in Korean, of course.) GM Myung passed away a year ago, & his organization became zai dan hou zin(foundation) a little bit ago. He has connection with Aikikai in 70s, and was a member of IAF, but didn't teach aikido. His organization got canceled as a IAF member (maybe in 1999?), cause never paid annual fee. He was a whole-life Hapkidoist and taught by GM Ji Han-jae. His organization is the third biggest Hapkido federation in Korea. But most of other Hapkidoists think his style is a lttle bit far from Hapkido, & Aikidoist don't think his art as Aikido! 'His' style is a kind of inter-part between Hapkido & Aikido.(one of my Japanese sensei told "Mr. Myung is a very intellegent person. How could he make some new style from a few aikido technique & Hapkido? That looks like Aikido, but 'not' Aikido." after he saw GM Myung's video clip.) His student published a Hapkido textbook earlier, showed IAF membership(not now), telled the founder of Hapkido(with Aikido, those are same in Chinese letter) is Ueshiba! Worst of all, this was a mixture of Hapkido, Aikido, & (Bruce Lee's)Jeet Kune Do! But that GM Myung was very intelligent and did intensive traning till his death is widely accepted. He was one of best teachers in Korean martial arts. I pray his soul may rest in peace. Have a good time. [This message has been edited by psysung (edited 12-17-2000).] [This message has been edited by psysung (edited 12-17-2000).] ....." Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:35:52 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Books and Styles Dear Mr. Porter: I was very intrigued by your position on styles, enough any how that I wanted to respond to a couple of things you mentioned in passing. While taking organizations and MA leadership to task a bit ago I should also share that it is my opinion that in many ways the martial artist here in the US gets pretty much what they are asking for. I suspect that the origin for this lies in what you shared in your letter. Lets take a look at your comments a bit more slowly, yes? "The Muye Do Bo Tongji is worth the money(under$30.00) It has a lot of interesting information about weapons uses an a brief spot on empty hand training." After all the whooplah of the last decades of what constitutes genuine or authentic Korean martial tradition I was surprised that you characterized one of the few genuine resources available as only "interesting". Of course, I was able to resolve this for myself when you likewise characterized Master Choes' book also as "interesting." The secret lies in whatever your basis for comparison may be. One book offers insight into the forces that influenced the development of martial tradition in Korea and the other is a random presentation of disparate grappling techniques. You find them both "interesting" and both can be had for the asked purchase price. So which one do you think that most students of Korean MA are going to purchase? I suggest M Choes' book and again, your letter tells us why. "All this talk about various styles, their history, which is "Real" ,"True" etc. is enough to make me sick. A style is a name given to his or her method of training and teaching and that is it." Not quite it. A "style" is a methodology applied by which a demand is made on a student to produce a result and it is this demand that most students have the greatest trouble with. A "style" requires a person to trust in that particular way the body is used rather than cop-out and fill-in with something else when a movement seems counter-intuitive or another art seems to have something better to offer. The student is expected to submit to training that is slow, perhaps ungratifying, frustrating, tedious and uncomfortable. Most students won't do this. Most students will cut and run to a school where the training is easier, rank is faster, material is more novel and technique is more flamboyant. Returning to my question above, I can tell you that most people will buy M Choes' book because it makes fewer demands on them and gives to them more than it asks from them. For a few dollars you learn a few Hapkido techniques such that you can then represent to the listening public that you "know" Hapkido. I had a chance to watch a few video tapes of S Okamoto of the Daito-ryu Roppokai. You will remember that Hapkido derives in some part from the Daito-ryu. His techniques were nothing short of astounding and he was teaching the techniques to others so one may suppose that people who are invested in such could learn and do those same techniques. The trick is that these are techniques you cannot learn from a book (or a video tape) and they take years of diligence and commitment. The average American students does not want to learn in this manner, and that makes it easy for someone such as yourself to easily declare ".., don't get so caught up in your style that you lose your identity and your ability to use common sense..." Perhaps you are right, Mr. Porter, don't get all caught up in things. Life is too short to commit to a single line of thought, or become dedicated to just one approach. Do that and you might miss out on some other opportunity, and wouldn't THAT be a bite in the a**. Gawd forbid in our accelerated culture someone should miss out on something! I will close this contribution with a hearty handshake to you for something you closed your letter with. "...Recognize style for what it is, look way beyond it to your teacher, is he or she someone you want to learn from? Can they teach you what you want to learn?..." To this I add, "damn right". I took the leadership of Korean MA to task for not delivering on their leadership positions but that does not mean I think the membership is not without some need of challenging as well. Before you start to complain about how you aren't getting what you think you deserve in terms of instruction, or maybe fighting efficacy, perhaps the members of many of the MA organizations ought to examine what they truly want to buy and what they are willing to pay. Healthy organizations, authentic instruction and legit MA come at a price. The price only starts with tuition and includes regular attendance, dedication, research, commitment and investment. Thank you sincerely for raising the comments that you did. Now lets see if anyone is listening. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:42:20 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #781 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.