From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #783 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 19 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 783 In this issue: the_dojang: Conversation with GM Myung Seok Seo the_dojang: Re: "Real Fighting" the_dojang: new poomsae the_dojang: street fighting the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #782 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #782 the_dojang: Fluffy (was Re: Comments on groundfighting) the_dojang: RE: Groundfighting Comments the_dojang: Korean Language Resources the_dojang: RE: Patches and such the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #782 the_dojang: On Being Tinkless the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:17:19 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Conversation with GM Myung Seok Seo Hello, I just talked to GM Myung Seok Seo today, He says He does not have a video series yet, but one is in the future,also Information on his book: Traditional Tang Soo Do Forms Hardcover, International Tang-Soo-Do Moo-Duck Association, January 1998 ISBN:0966160800 Author: Seo, Myung-Seok Editor: Miller, Glenn R. Illustrator: Clemons, Gary T Photographer: Worrill, James L. This book contains 21 Traditional Forms This is his only book, but more are waiting to be printed, you can find it at www.bordersbooks.com for $75.00 Hope this has helped Bernard http://pages.cthome.net/redtsd ------------------------------ From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:23:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: "Real Fighting" Just a couple of more thoughts on "real" fighting. 1. I have noticed that outside of the dojang the ground is hard. If you train on mats you are not ready for the feel of concrete. I was once a pretty good wrestler, but I don't intend to spend any time on the ground, or at least any more than I have to. You seen a barroom floor? Would you go there on purpose? 2. I was once told that when someone says his martial art is better than yours, he doesn't know his very well. 3. I once was within two feet of Master Kwon, Jae Hwa as he broke stones against the floor of my instructor's dojang. With a ridge hand. You believe in "one strike, one kill" after you see it. Even I have broken boards with a spear hand strike. The lack of applicability is not with the art, but with the practitioner. Rick Foley ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:27:55 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: new poomsae Dear Ray, The article, such as it was, was merely a picture with a two sentence comment which I almost completely quoted. I have no more information except that the pattern was first performed at a gym in Chungchon province, not at the Kukkiwon. Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Carmelo Gauci" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:08:50 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: street fighting Having seen some postings on TKD and street self-defense ( I call it self-defense and not fighting bec we should not be going out there saying that we go to pick fights, but more precisely defend ourselves) I would like to add my opinion to it. Ok ... to start with ... I am no black belt .. I have a green belt ... so I am still quite 'green'. I think TKD can hold its own against many other MAs, I have many friends who luckily practise different MAs, such as Karate, Kung Fu, Judo, and Ninjitsu. I do meet up with these guys every now and then and practice some self-defense each of us using his own techniques, using spontaneuos attacks. The most positive aspect of this is that we both learn from eachother, and the best lesson is that I learn how to manipulate my TKD to suit all these other different styles, and what I notice is that when it comes to a face off with one or more opponents, you cannot apply what you learn in the dojang stance by stance, strike by strike. Your opponent will never move in straight lines, much like sparring ... the only difference is that sparring has rules, self-defense has none. So where do the teachings you learned in the dojang apply? ... in the way you OUT-THINK your oppent ... quick thinking is what will enable you to apply what you learned, NOT by the BOOK but by what the situation you are in dictates. One last thing I would like to share here is that without self-confidence you will not survive. If you are scared of your opponent you WILL loose. Slef-Defense is 80% Confidence and 20% technique this was thought to me and the rest of my collegue students during a seminar with Master Ky Tu 6th Dan from Denmark. Self-Confidence gives you an aura which your opponent will sense and will affect him mentally! This on the other hand is no excuse to not respect your opponents ability and take him lightly. I wish to thank all those who had giving me advice on breathing .. It IS working. Thanks!! :) ... I owe you guys!! Carmelo Gauci from Malta. PS ... A boxer and can punch good, but he can't kick. A serious TKD practioner can kick AND strike too!! ( hey we do not just use punches you know!!) ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:39:25 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #782 In a message dated 12/18/00 11:27:27 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Most people on the street no longer have boxing training--boxing is a dying art, there are very few boxing schools today. In fact I bet you that boxing schools, if considered a martial art, would only 1% of the martial art schools out there. >> Out of curiosity i checked the San Antonio yellow pages. I found 75 martial art schools listed and only one boxing school. So good point. The boxing school is the school of the infamous Ayala family.....produces really dynamite boxers. gary pieratt VOTESCAM: New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:50:32 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #782 In a message dated 12/18/00 11:27:27 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I've seen people from all sorts of styles, including no formal MA training at all that could handle just about any street situation, and I've seen people from all sorts of styles that couldn't. >> A few years ago, a black belt from one of my competitors got in a fight in the high school cafeteria. Fight lasted just a few seconds. The black belt lost to a person with no martial arts training, just street smarts. The black belt stepped back (to give himself room for his tkd lock out kicks I suppose), then let go a series of 3 round kicks to an imaginary hogo. On the 3rd kick the other guy caught the kick (yeah, uh oh!) and down they went, yes to the ground. Two or three punches later the fight was broken up, the black belt clearly the loser. So the next day the black belt (remember: NOT from my school! :) ) had a black eye to remind everyone he lost. This is a guy who really thought he was a bad *** and was frequently seen running around town shadow boxing like Rocky. He immediately switched styles and schools (to one that emphasized more street than sport). Lots of heart, and today he is an Army Ranger. gary pieratt New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: "Jim Griffin" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:03:20 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Fluffy (was Re: Comments on groundfighting) That's why I like Alain. See, I get to practice forms that are called things like "Eight Trigrams of nature", "Modesty" and "Eight Guardians". We definately need a form like "Fluffy Doesn't Want A Bath". What's the Korean translation for this? Anyone? Great post, sir. Your Fluffy comments paint the exact picture of what I think a ground scramble looks like. - --- begin quoted message --- From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:48:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Comments on groundfighting Some very good points were made about knowing how to ground fight so you can get back up. That is true. But a person that knows no formal "holds" or counters can do fairly well if they go "Fluffy doesn't want a bath" on the guy. What I mean by this is, think of a cat named fluffy and how she might react as you try to submerge her in the tub. How easy will she be to hold on to. That's my idea of kicking, scratching, maiming and anything else I can do to get away. Go "fluffy!" - --- end quoted message --- - ---===--- Jim Griffin www.wuma.com sitebuilder.liveuniverse.com/jgriffin/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:54:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Groundfighting Comments Mr. Burrese, Thanks for a very classy reply regarding my counterpoints. I wish everyone were as open to opinions slightly contrary to their own as you are. I'll try my best to emulate your fine example through my own dealings here on the list. I too share a similar distaste for some of the marketing hype that has surrounded particular arts over the last several years. I'll only add the gentle reminder that much of that hype comes in the form of ad copy formulated by video companies looking to sell training tapes, and doesn't necessarily represent the opinions of "grapplers" and "groundfighters"...I have found most of them to be as humble and open-minded as any other martial artist. Unfortunately, there HAVE been some overzealous practicioner's who have spared no expense to promote their art, and redefine "reality" in order to bolster their art's perceived value. That annoying "90% rule" owes it's origin to a certain high profile instructor currently based in Torrance, CA...he shall remain nameless, but most here probably know who I'm referring to. And in case it hasn't been said here before, the first UFC's were nothing more than an infommercial for that same instructor's family art...what with it's brackets loaded with fighters absolutely clueless about groundfighting...easy pickings for a skinny 175 pound Brazilian well-versed in taking it to the ground and finishing it there. Your "fluffy" concept is interesting. Yes, it is definitely hard to deal with someone going ape-sh*t, and I can better visualize what you're talking about now that you used that particular analogy. I think we both agree that the ground is not preferred, and getting up ASAP is the ideal condition. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: bwoodard@mortonsalt.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:06:11 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Language Resources I would like to learn to speak Korean and write in Hangul. Due to time constraints and location I will have to teach myself. Does anyone have any suggestions text, tapes, or websites? Thanks, Brian ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:35:04 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Patches and such Dana wrote: "Well, I know the old Kwan materials are really quite similar between TSD and TKD, and I suppose it really should not annoy me since it obviously does not annoy them, BUT - - I still find something this basic as bothersome. I know patches seem superficial, but if you do not care about the accuracy on your most prominent and sometimes only advertising logo, how accurate is what you are being taught and told on points of history and philosophy? Do these people know the difference between Chinese and Hangul? Do they care? I guess it just seems to me to be symptomatic of intellectual laziness." I think it's more the case of people just accepting the patch that their instructor(s)use. The patch is nothing more than a symbol...a means of identifying oneself both inside and outside the group. I suppose it's quaint when people take the time and energy to know what every little color is symbolic of, or what the literal translation of the wording is, but it's not my bag. To some, symbols have powerful meanings, and displaying them or adorning one's clothes with them is a means of communicating group affiliation. To me, it's a primitive rite that I have struggled to move away from...but keep in mind this is coming from someone who has grown to detest the "belt system" much less the usage of patches and banners. Some people see patches as positive symbols...I see them as one more thing that divides and compartmentalizes us...fosters the "us vs. them" mentality. In the end it's just a piece of cloth, but for some it represents the end-all-be-all of their martial identity. I think the attitudes you ran into at the tournament are very indicative of this. How much better off we'd be if we were more open and sharing as opposed to closed and defensive. I think those cute little pieces of colored cloth help to foster the latter. Also, I see patches as a "Western thing"...you never saw Gichin Funakoshi running around looking like an escapee from a quilt factory. I appreciate the simplicity of the plain white uniform (yes, another symbol) as opposed to those tacky NASCAR get-ups you see some people sporting these days. But hey, some people just have to make a statement. I guess my "peeve" is more with patches themselves, rather than whether or not their wearers understand the verbage. Not trying to offend...I'm wrong much more often than I'm right (according to the wife). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Meteor2000@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:12:32 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #782 In a message dated 12/18/00 9:27:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:27:38 Subject: the_dojang: Patches and such Hi. I get a frustrating kick out of this, so I thought I'd throw out one of my pet peeves and see what others think. It has to do with black belts who one, don't know what the patches they are wearing say or mean [or maybe just don't care], or two, associations advertising a style when their logo or flags denote another style. I'll use Tang Soo Do & Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan as an example. I was at an open tournament recently and there were numerous black belts walking around with Moo Duk Kwan patches. In reading their patches [Chinese for TSD MDK] and asking them where they trained in Tang Soo Do, they'd look at me like I was crazy and inform me [sometimes quite severely] that they were "Taekwondo stylists--NOT Tang Soo Do." Oops, silly me! I really never want to point out that their patches, prominently displayed on their chests, say different. Visiting webs sites is the same thing. Taekwondo advertising with TSD logos, or even flipping through the current TKD Times, a TSD organization with a Taekwondo flag behind the GM (in Hangul). Well, I know the old Kwan materials are really quite similar between TSD and TKD, and I suppose it really should not annoy me since it obviously does not annoy them, BUT - - I still find something this basic as bothersome. I know patches seem superficial, but if you do not care about the accuracy on your most prominent and sometimes only advertising logo, how accurate is what you are being taught and told on points of history and philosophy? Do these people know the difference between Chinese and Hangul? Do they care? I guess it just seems to me to be symptomatic of intellectual laziness. What do you think? Would "Eat at Won's" in Chinese be worse?! :.) Dana >> Hello Dana, While it could be questioned that a member of TSDMDK would be wearing a TKDMDK patch it would not be unusual for the master of a TKDMDK school to wear a TSDMDK patch. The reason is this, a really truly senior master of Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan would have had to have been a member of Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan before 1964 and therefore maybe only showing his roots so to speak. As for the patches saying in Chinese Han Ja or in Korean Hangul Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do neither say that, this is what the patches say Tang (left) Moo (center) Soo (right) and Tae (left) Moo (center) Kwon (right) most students couldn't care less about the technicalities of the patches. One very interesting example of the above was one of the greatest Grandmasters we have ever had the pleasure and good fortune to have teach in this country was the late Grandmaster Ki Whang Kim, and he wore a TSD patch yet he was a highly ranked member of Taekwondo and turned some of the very best fighters and form competitors in the 60's and 70's. MG ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:15:46 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: On Being Tinkless > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: "tink73" > Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:01:49 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Moving > > Pil Sung All... > > I haven't been around much in the past couple of months...too many things > taking up my time...moving is one of them... > > I will be moving to Ft. Wayne, Indiana in January (like that was a smart > time of year to pick) for a much better career opportunity...I will be > looking for someone or someplace to work out when I get > there...Hopefully...once I get properly settled...I will start planning on > teaching again and opening my own Do Jang...if all works out properly... > > Any of you subscribers close to Ft. Wayne?...if any of you are near > by...drop me a line and let me know...would love to get together, work > out, > or at least exchange opinions, ideas, and philosophies...whatever...later! > > The One and Only... > > Tink > > Hey, Ft. Wayne, take good care of this guy. We'll miss him here in Kansas. Of course, maybe you can give him some culture... heaven knows WE tried. ;) Kerry WTF TKD Who will now skip all classes until Jan/2001 for reasons of personal safety ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 8:49:50 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #783 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.