From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #784 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 19 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 784 In this issue: the_dojang: Martial Artists, Check out the FBI files being maintained on you... the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #781 the_dojang: RE:Real Fighting, Fluffy and Stuff the_dojang: RE: Patches and such the_dojang: Fluffy wants a bath the_dojang: Myung Seok Seo contact Infomation the_dojang: RE: Patches and Such the_dojang: Re: martial arts physics the_dojang: Re: what they really meant was... the_dojang: Re: korean language the_dojang: Fluffy (was Re: Comments on groundfighting) the_dojang: Re: The Kimchee Defense the_dojang: Patches and such the_dojang: Re: Curious= The sweet science of Boxing ? the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:35:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Martial Artists, Check out the FBI files being maintained on you... Fellow Martial Artists: If you have been in a few scraps, a peace protestor, or selling guns on the side, or teaching martial arts, you should be aware that the FBI may have had you under surveillance. Check out the following site forwarded to me by a fellow Wrecking Crew member. It is absolutely amazing. I found stuff on me that I thought I buried during the late 1960's incidents with the Weatherwoman group. Big Ken. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:56:03 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #781 Bruce Sims forwarded a note by Sung Ju-hwan that said: "His [Myung's] student published a Hapkido textbook earlier, showed IAF membership(not now), telled the founder of Hapkido(with Aikido, those are same in Chinese letter) is Ueshiba! Worst of all, this was a mixture of Hapkido, Aikido, & (Bruce Lee's)Jeet Kune Do!" I think I've seen this book. Hapkido is in the first third, Jeet kune do (or at least Chi Sao) in the middle, and Aikido in the back. I don't remember seeing much that was very interesting in the book. What did everybody else think? Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:32:15 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Real Fighting, Fluffy and Stuff There have been several posts in the last few days and weeks on "real" fighting and self defense skills and superior and inferior arts and sticking to one art versus crosstraining in several. I thought I'd throw in a few things for thought. There was the recent thread about the futility of training for a multiple attacker defense on the street. Then there was the thread about the absolute necessity of cross training because you have to have groundwork experience to sucessfully defend yourself. I agree that dealing with multiple or armed attackers is very serious business. I also agree that the odds of winning are not promising in a lot of cases. However, I think that Alain's "Fluffy" principle has a lot of merit. I remember that there was a lady who had a green belt and was around 20 years old in my first Tae Kwon Do school. This lady weighed perhaps 110 lbs. She was attacked by two men who attempted to kidnap her and stuff her into the trunk of their car one night in a near deserted parking lot. She said the first thing she knew someone grabbed her and picked her up from the rear. She said she fought like a wildcat. She kicked, punched, clawed and screamed while the two guys were trying to stuff her in the trunk of their car. At one time she only managed to keep getting one arm or leg out at the time so the deck lid wouldn't close. She finally managed to jump out of the trunk and run as the guys took off. She was bruised and banged up quite a bit, but she attributed her limited training to saving her life. It wasn't the techniques. She didn't even know if she was able to connect with a good technique. It was the mental attitude that she would never give up. Did she win the fight? Did she successfully defend herself? I guess that might depend on your point of view. She didn't leave her attackers sprawled on the pavement. But I can tell you that in her opinion she won. Second, its been my experience that one of the most critical elements of martial art training is the increased sense of awareness and preception that long time martial artists seem to develop. Its not necessarily the ability to kick someone's butt, but the ability to recognize a situation and take steps to control or avoid it before it involves physical conflict. I don't always avoid all the areas I should. But I've changed direction, crossed the street or made other decisive actions a number of times. Sun Tzu said, "To win a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the superior skill, to win without fighting is the superior skill." Third, about black belts getting beat up. Well, anyone can loose, and a black belt is no guarentee of victory. There is a real difference between sparring and fighting. The goals are different, the mental attitude has to be different, and the techniques are different. And a lot of schools just do not emphasize, read practice, freestyle self defense enough. And that is all styles, not just Tae Kwon Do, or not just WTF or ITF,ect. And last but not least, based on my experience in the martial arts, it is not the art that is limiting, it is the individual. I see a lot of people these days with first dan black belts in this and that and some other thing. In most styles, a first dan black belt means that you have a working knowledge of the basics, not mastery. This is not meant to flame anyone, but it takes a lot of time, training and personal development to master a system. And based on my experience, mastery of one system is better than learning the basics of 3 or 4. Let me add that I cross train myself and have never been against learning other systems. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:36:01 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Patches and such "Craig Stovall" wrote: [snip] I guess my "peeve" is more >with patches themselves, rather than whether or not their wearers >understand the verbage. > >Not trying to offend...I'm wrong much more often than I'm right (according >to the wife). Thanks Craig! No offensive taken! I appreciate your opinion and can understand your point of view. I just feel that black belts, as teachers, should be more intellectually cognizant of the physical and history/philosophy (Um/Yang)nuances of their "major!" I guess it is just the academian part of me...I also like to see footnotes and references! :.) Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:29:25 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Fluffy wants a bath Darn it Alain, I was really enjoying my morning coffee 'til you had to go and talk about giving fluffy a bath.... hot coffee right out the nose ... Although I am a cat owner I have NEVER tried to give a cat a bath, that requires a sadomasochistic streak that I do not possess... bad enough to try to get one in the car for a trip to the vet. I firmly agree with you that "going ballistic" is an efficacious technique. I have a few friends that work at a local mental hospital, and they have some wild tales of trying to subdue an inmate going "fluffy" on them. One thing that I think has gotten lost in all of the debate about which martial art is better in the "street" (my motto:don't fight in the street you might get run over) is the probability that in an attack it is pretty unlikely that your attacker has ANY self defense or martial training AT ALL. Thugs don't have the discipline to go to the Dojang 3 or 4 times a week, work out at home.. etc. And even though they may have been in more "real" fights than you, they probably have never fought someone with any real tactical skills. Face it, these guys (or gals) prey on those they are pretty sure won't put up a fuss. And when that first kick or punch lands WITH AUTHORITY, I have a feeling the bad guy will turn tail and skee-daddle. I'm not saying the martial artist will always come out on top, what I am saying is that the trained martial artist (in any discipline, even Tibetan Gopher Tossing) will stand a better chance than the person with no training. So, I will again attend my lowly WTF Tae Kwon Do class tonight in the firm belief that it is far better than sitting on my keester at home reading back issues of "Cat Fancier" magazine. I may get killed if confronted in the street by a bad guy, but I feel pretty sure he'll at least remember the confrontation. Keep in mind that these are all the opinions of a man who has spent his entire life in a small town in the middle of Kansas, sheltered from the big, bad outside world. So if I am out of line or sound extremely naive, give me a break, I'm a hick. Dave Weller Student WTF TKD "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi P.S. I just received Mr. Burresses' video "Hapkido Hoshinsul", and have begun viewing it. It is very forthright and educational. I hope there is a section on going "fluffy" included !!! Thanks, Alain, for sharing your obvious skill and real world experience with the rest of us. ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:58:28 EST Subject: the_dojang: Myung Seok Seo contact Infomation In a message dated 12/17/2000 10:47:12 AM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:22:30 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Myung Seok Seo Can anyone help me locate books or videos by Myung Seok Seo?? he put out a video series on traditional TSD Hyungs a while back and I can't seem to find them or him, he was in Maryland last I heard but cannot locate him tyo find out about the books or vids he has done, I have been told he included some rare forms. thanks Bernard >> I contacted my Master today, as he was a student of his, and he replied with: To answer your question about Master Seo, tell your friend that he can be contacted at The International Head Quarters @P.O. Box 975 Waldorf, Md. 20604-0975 USA his Ph.# is 1-(301)645-1626 or (301)868-6551 I hope that helps....... ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:08:48 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Patches and Such Dear Dana: Thanks for sharing your pet peeve. I was on another Net sometime back and a few individuals who are far better versed in oriental cosmology, symbolism and language were taking many of the latest "traditional" martial arts to task for their (mis)use of various characters, terms and images. In fact, I have to tell you that in an effort to design a patch for my students I shared my original pattern with one or two people at the Korean sword school I attend. I was informed that my patch looked just like the one worn by the Korean Government police. How nice. Back to the drawing board. However, as long as we are sharing pet peeves let me toss in my candidate - "D.I.Y. Hyung." I can't think of a lot of things that irritate me like sand in my swimsuit as much as somebody who has decided to make up their own Hyung by taking various moves or techniques and slapping them together often with benefit of music. The typical rationale most of these individuals present for this is that "all the great masters did it" and the individuals' efforts are just one more step in the evolution of their art. Its not just that the new pseudo-hyung has no common theme affirmed by various interpretations of a particular biomechanic (ie. Japanese Form Bassai-"dealing with positions of disadvantage"). Its not just that most new pseudo-hyung are essentially performance art organized for visual impact to enhance student recruitment or tournament success. Its not just that the selection of techniques for these pseudo-hyung often represent only a limited vision of a single aspect of the art. Just as you were saying, Dana, about how people use symbols and characters without having a depth of understanding, I see people attempting to express themselves through a training medium with only minimal appreciation of what they are dealing with. Hyung, while not an exhaustive representation of an art, present the most salient ways in which a particular art elects to use the body and mind to accomplish a goal. Some movements in a hyung can have no practical application other than to challenge a practitioner in moving from one posture to another smoothly, with balance. Some aspects of Hyung are not unlike a Rorschach Test in which the practitioner is challenged to figure how the move can best serve the goals of the art. But most importantly, some of the most sophisticated Hyung seem rather innocuous in presenting what seems to be only the most basic of punching and kicking techniques. I suspect these Hyung are not practiced much because they don't carry enough drama for the average American MA practitioner. In many ways, we Americans are way too enamored of a Hyung telling us WHAT to do rather than HOW one does it. You know, Dana, there is one other thing that just came to mind as I was preparing to close this off. I was surprised to read a persons' contribution on another Net about how he could best mix "something" with his Karate training to make it more "practical for the street". Now its been a while since I trained in Karate but at that time (during the 70-s) we had elbow strikes, knee strikes, sweeps, intrusive techniques to the eyes and ears, spinal fractures, throws and joint locks. In Hapkido that I practice today we still have this. Just exactly how much more "street practical" does an art have to be? I'm wondering if what a lot of people are really looking for is an art that has greater "challenge value" rather than "combat value." The Korean arts in my experience have more than enough material for practical application but a person needs to be willing to use the tools. These arts are not bowling, tennis or even boxing and I can't see how any art of any country is going to relieve the practitioner of having to give and take pain in an encounter. Good talking to you. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:25:58 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: martial arts physics is that list still running? t.i.a.! :) melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.chajonshim.com Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:26:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: what they really meant was... In a message dated 12/18/2000 9:26:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << What do you think? Would "Eat at Won's" in Chinese be worse?! :.) >> i was once told by a korean friend that the hangul on my belt translated to mean "stupid round eye" . of course it was just a joke....but....! ! :)....lol. melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.chajonshim.com Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:32:02 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: korean language In a message dated 12/19/2000 8:31:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: bwoodard@mortonsalt.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:06:11 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Language Resources I would like to learn to speak Korean and write in Hangul. Due to time constraints and location I will have to teach myself. Does anyone have any suggestions text, tapes, or websites? Thanks, Brian >> hi brian, we have some good "korean language and culture" links on our website links page. melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.chajonshim.com Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships ------------------------------ From: Gary Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:47:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Fluffy (was Re: Comments on groundfighting) > Great post, sir. Your Fluffy comments paint the exact picture of what I > think a ground scramble looks like. Hey, a discussion of stand up and groundfighting that is actually interesting and not just a style flame war! Anyway, I would like to toss out a few of my own opinions. I first heard the cat analogy on Marc McYoung's website and thought it was great. It reminded me that self-defense is not about winning a fight, but about getting out of a bad situation with the least damage to yourself as possible. A quick stun-and-run strategy is usually preferable then trying to go toe-to-toe with someone. On groundfighting: I usually practice standup, but I make myself work on the ground to. I say make because I don't like it as much as stand up for practical reasons- not as mobile (I want the option of taking off) and aesthetic- being smothered under heavy sweating people who are trying to choke you is not fun. But I realize that in a real situation, my wishes on what range a fight occurs at may be ignored by the other person(s). Therefore I work on the ground so that I have some idea of what to do at that range. I've worked with people who are brand new to groundwork before. Since this was at a university club, these were usually young high-energy people. Without many skills to use, their general strategy was to "Go Fluffy", with lots of bouncing and flailing. Granted, this was sparring, so no biting or gouging was happening, but elbows and knees flew freely. My basic strategy was to go "Oh brother", get a grip and hunker down. I could position myself fairly safely, and in a few minutes they would tire out, and I could do something nasty to them. After a few lessons about groundfighting though, they became a lot more efficient about their flailing, and I had to work a lot harder to stay safe and get a tap. My basic point is that while I don't think that you need to go out and get a black belt in whatever XJJ art that is open near you, knowing just a few basic skills on the ground can help you out of a bad situation. It's the same thing as a grappler learning some basic strikes and blocks- you don't have to be an expert in every range, but it's a good idea to know the big thing's that you shouldn't do. GK ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:17:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The Kimchee Defense A poster noted: Response: Good discussion on street fightin'. But have any of you thought about the best defense, re: The Kimchee Defense. It is so easy, I twas thinkin' that some of you missed the boat ! Load up on the Kimchee and just talk to your potential attacker. The smell is greater than any pepper spray or laser attack. The best part is that all u have to do is talk ! Less energy for us older folk...> McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "jere-hilland" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:28:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Patches and such <> I found that hilarious. I think we have all seen that over the years but not at the yudanja level. The ones down the side of the pants are the most amusing. Although my students and I do not wear patches, I remember a student of an organization once asking me what his patch said in Korean. I told him it was Chinese, the word was chi, known as ki in Korean, what I did not tell him was that I just read an article about the head of his organization who stated that he did not believe in ki. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:35:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Curious= The sweet science of Boxing ? All this talk about another country (where I once lived, re: Korea), and the ancient traditions of a particular nations art ? I was wondering. What ever happened to the sweet science of boxing. I mean take a good American trained boxer. A guy who likes to hit and get hit. Match him up with a guy from Korea. A boxer from Korea ? What happens 9 times out of 10 times ? The U.S.A boxer kicks the Korea guys rear end. What does that tell ya ? I mean I love to discuss the traditions. But, what happened to the sweet science of boxing. Pound for Pound Baby ! Take Muy Guy Gai Pan and match him up against street tough Joe Frazier...and what happens ? Dunno, but just thinkin' that the good ol USA has the basics, baby. Yeah, that is why I love this country too ! So, thoughts on the sweet science of boxing against one of those TKD dudes ? Or Would Sugar Ray make mince meat out of Moey Guey ? Food for thought ? Let me know. Opinions sought. Discussions encouraged. Remember, The USA is the best baby. No place better. An American Boxer vs. some Korean Dude ? If I were a betting man, my bet on the dude from Philly. Now pass me a Philly Cheesesteak ! Peace, McD... - --- Jere HIlland wrote: > Was Master Myung not the founder and president of the WHA before it > became > the WHF and the directors his students? I am not sure; however, my first > thought was remembering when Dr. Kimm give a lecture at the Independence > Hall in Korea, in front of some very historical old Korean flags > explaining > why there are only 9 dans in the Korean martial ways. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:24:16 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #784 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.