From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #791 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 21 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 791 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Dave S on Boxing vs. Other Martial Arts=good analysis, John the_dojang: Tae Eun Kim the_dojang: Re: Muay Thai vs. American boxing the_dojang: Real Fighting the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #790 the_dojang: Re: Tae Yun Kim the_dojang: Re: Tae Yun Kim again the_dojang: PSNA (Pressure Sensitive Nerve Areas) video review the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #788 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:26:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dave S on Boxing vs. Other Martial Arts=good analysis, John John: Good analysis below. I am in agreement with you. Thanks for the comments and insight. McD... - --- ATATX@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/21/2000 7:46:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, > maganda44@yahoo.com writes: > > > > I would suggest that we could take this a step further. Even a boxer who > is a bum can work you over if you let him in close where he can do the most damage. As a comparison the boxer takes dozens of techniques to head and body whereas most martial artists do not know how to cover up or how to take (roll with) a punch. > > I have sparred hundreds of black belts and MA students. My personal > opinion (for what it is worth) is that maybe 5% or less could fight and possibly hold their own against a boxer with equal experience. Every time I have had my bell rung (it has a very metallic sound) I always responded by immediately working in at the first opportunity getting in close. Without exception some character would yell "break." It is all right for a MA player to try to take your head off with a kick but get in and start your routine apparently is not considered good sportsmanship. > > My observation is that MA schools do not learn to defend adequately > against a fighter or do not understand the mentality of a fighter. If you have the ability to fight in this manner you must be very careful how you use it in a martial arts class. A fighter learns to fight by developing good body movement as well as learning how to load up a technique. His/her incentive to learn this is leather in the face, punishing blows to mid section, hooks and upper cuts to head. How many martial artists know how to feint a hook to body and load up a knock out hook to head with the entire upper body behind it? How many even know how to hold their head or tuck in their chin? > > Advanced black belts in many styles are exceptions. As are students who > have learned how to maintain their distance and pick apart anything that > invades their territory. I am also referring only to students who fought on their feet. > > Cordially, > john wyatt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: David Reed Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:26:32 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Tae Eun Kim The only evidence I have seen on this person is the required feats for testing. Breaking glass, walking over hot coals, etc. all of which are then attributed to the power the person obtained through her teaching. Those who have done these sorts of "publicity" stunts know that they aren't reflective in any way of martial skill or any other skill except extreme gullibility. They are meant to cement a dependence on a particular person and are reliant on the fact that the individual is ignorant of basic physics. Combine this with the worshipful attitude the students have as opposed to a respectful one and you begin to see a clear picture. Although I try heartily to refrain from denigrating any individual or new style as time usually tells the tale anyway, this sort of hucksterism and pop psychology is damaging to those of us who want to advance a heallthy, positive view of martial arts to the public. I apologize if this offends but we all know how many fly by night styles open up so someone can make money or advance their ego. They hurt us all. Regards, David ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:38:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Muay Thai vs. American boxing Martin, the "newbie", commented: < Now to get to the point I would like to make. When it comes to street fighting (self defense) both are excellent choices, but in my opinion, I would much rather have two weapons (hands, feet, actually more) than one (hands). Pound for pound a practioner of Muy Tai, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, etc. would be a far more dangerous adversary of an attacker than a boxer, particuraly when dealing with more than one attacker. > Response: Good discussion above. You have taken the initial discussion and added a twist. I believe a boxer is trained how to move his feet and maintain balance. Obviously, Western Boxing eliminates foot techniques. Now thinking that you have eliminated a perfectly beautiful weapon of the feet, and these boxers can still knock you out ? So, is it easier or harder art form ? Add the Muay Thai and you throw in spritual religion and knees, elbows, feet,clinches, shots to the ribs with knees, mini-grappling, and wow--I don't wont to face one of those dudes. Is it any wonder that many Thai fighters start young and by their late 20's they are retired. I once sparred against a guy who boxed with the Air Force Boxing Team. Then he practiced Korean Martial Arts. Let me tell you. This guy was so quick with his hands and his balance was superb. Now you throw in his ability to kick you ? He was unstoppable ! McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:52:42 EST Subject: the_dojang: Real Fighting Hello everyone and Merry Christmas, I thought I would post a little about REAL FIGHTING, it is not the desire or knowledge that will help you prevail in an altercation it is your will not to be hurt that will allow you to do whatever necessary to survive. I see a lot about Real Fights and Street Fighting on the list lately, having had the misfortune of growing up in a neighborhood that meant fighting almost everyday just for living in the wrong area, I can tell you all fights are Real. You will react the way that you train for the most part. If you are practicing Martial Arts with the thought of using it in a Real Fight than you are missing out. Practice with the hope that you never have to hurt another human being, but know that what you are learning is for real and deliver each and every technique with power, speed and commitment. Do not become a victim, due to training or a lack of it. The skills that one obtains can only be as good as the person using them. Style has very little to do with the outcome where there are no rules or judges. Until it happens to you, you can sit and speculate all day long, the bottom line is you just don't know and I hope that you don't find out. Enjoy your training and share what you know with someone else. Who knows if enough people were practicing Martial Arts maybe there would be a great decrease in Violence. We all know that Martial Artist are all peace loving God fearing people who seek betterment for others as well as themselves. I did not mean for this to be so long. Train to live and live to Train. Dan ------------------------------ From: "Floyd, Jim" Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:04:52 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #790 - ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:45:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dave S on Boxing vs. Other Martial Arts Dave noted correctly,in part: Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:03:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Curious= The Sweet Science of Boxing You made very good points about boxing vs TKD. I've asked these questions too about what ever happened to the "Sweet Science". And I've come to some conclusions: (1) Boxing is dangerous!!! If you box for any reasonable length of time, say one year, there is a good chance that you will get your nose broken. This is really a bad thing because your nose may not heal properly and you will have a crooked or flat nose!!! If you dont believe me then just go and see some long term boxers. Plus the cost of going to the hospital in this country. (2) Stamina required to just do a 3 minute round is beyond many and takes a long time to build up too. Be other than a young person in your early 20's and you will have real trouble in the ring or training for such. You may think that a 3 minute round is easy but its not when someone is punching at you and you have to punch back...drop your hands as you get tired and it gets real bad.> Response: Extremely valid points. Which lends credence to the fact that a well schooled boxer can handle himself against any traditional or modern martial arts aficionado. This query emanated from one posters premise that a good boxer is a formidable opponent in a real fight simply because that individual is schooled in how to hit and get hit. Right ! The broken noses, the infamous damaged ear lobes. This sort of throws a slight monkey wretch into the concept that one martial art is the answer. After all, you take a basic schooled boxer and he can maintain himself in or out of the ring ? Cheers, McD... - ------------------------------ From: Martin Price Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:45:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: American boxing versus Muy Tai kick boxing. I have just recently joined this digest and have read with some interest the "boxing" discussions. I have watched both boxing and (Muy Tai) kickboxing numerous times and enjoy both. Over the years I have seen kickboxers attempt to crossover to boxing several times with little success and I have seen boxers attempt to crossover to kick boxing with little success either. Boxing and kick boxing are two totally different sports and as a result from what I have seen it is quite difficult for someone in one to crossover to the other due to the fact that on one hand you are taking a very familiar weapon away from one (kicking) or on the other hand adding an unfamiliar weapon to defend against (kicking). Now to get to the point I would like to make. When it comes to street fighting (self defense) both are excellent choices, but in my opinion, I would much rather have two weapons (hands, feet, actually more) than one (hands). Pound for pound a practioner of Muy Tai, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, etc. would be a far more dangerous adversary of an attacker than a boxer, particuraly when dealing with more than one attacker. I totally agree with all that say it has much to do with the attitude of the arts practioner. You can be a black belt or a professional boxer, but without the will and knowledge to actually hurt someone else you could wind up getting the daylights beaten out of you or worse. Martin a newbie ___________________________________________________ In 1966 in Oklahoma City, OK when I was training with "Jack" Hwang at his school on N. May Ave there was "the" local boxing school next door to us. It was run by the Sean O'Grady clan. Every once in a while the boxers would come over to show the Karate flakes (no one knew what Tae Kwon Do was back then) how to really fight. Even as a Green belt I had now problem gutting them with a spinning back kick or side kick as counters to their right cross and other exaggerated punches - this was all very friendly of course. While boxing is a great sport I've not been impressed with it as a martial art for self defense. How many times have you heard of a boxer breaking his hand in a street fight because he is used to hitting with pillows over his knuckles. The medical profession even calls it the pugilist's break. While boxers do have great endurance none of my street fights have ever had to go two minutes no less three. Bare knuckles and focused kicks take out the bad guys real fast. I attribute my success in self defense to the fact my instructors emphasized self defense before sport - tournaments were a way to test your technique and develop timing and distance, not get a trophy. Now before everyone gets excited by what I have said understand I am not bad rapping boxing or tournaments - just saying that the primary focus of the Martial Arts I studied was Self Defense and it has worked very well for me so far. Jim Floyd Warrior Alliance ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:19:02 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Tae Yun Kim In a message dated 12/21/00 1:00:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << 3. Hard-sell contract attempt. During this my brother asked: Q: How much are lessons? A: How much have you got? >> For a woman who makes supposedly millions of dollars just in the computer chip business she has also ... I am curious as to how much she charges for her monthly dues and her belt test fees. Anyone know ? Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:31:59 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Tae Yun Kim again In a message dated 12/21/00 1:00:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << 1. GM Kim in a bouffaint on a stage singing to her students as they worked out. >> I have a question ... what is "bouffaint" ? I have sat outside her dojo (when I was upstate for a karate seminar with IMAMS) ... and watched a test she was conducting ... she had music playing with students on the side beating drums. Everyone from white belt on up all came at the same time to test ... must have been 60 - 70 people there ... all lined up and warming up together. That test took hours ! Very ceremonial. As they finished testing ... they could leave, tho, if they chose to. This was about 7 or 8 years ago, tho. Don't know what it is like now. I have visited her site recently and she has added the flair of polyester, short sleeved uniforms to the look. And each belt rank color matches the color of their uniform. Purple belts wear a purple gi ... orange wear orange gi's and so on ... must get expensive to have to buy a new uniform each time they test ... unless it is included in the belt test fee (which is ?????). I have one of her video tapes ... a cassette tape ... and a book of hers. She is a good talker ... nice voice ... very soothing. Very motivational. And everyone talks well of her ... but I have heard the rumors of her school being like a cult. Never been proven, tho, that I know of. She has a huge school ... over 10,000 sq. feet big ... and one block from Master Mathers school that is also, 10,000 sq. feet (one of two that he has) ... very impressive inside ... she has a small watefall in her office in the corner ... very nice ... and the desk and other furniture in there is black oriental furniture with the inlaid mother of pearl in it and all. Very beautiful. She impresses many, I am sure. I am impressed because even at her age ... she can still do the splits ! I can't ! LOL !!! Got to work on this ! :-) I don't know what to really say about her ... except I don't really know what it is she teaches there ... as she has branched off of TKD to her own style ... and it seems to be based (from what I can gather) on alot of classes on motivational stuff ... not just the physical kicking and punching. My 2 cents. Illona ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:10:59 PST Subject: the_dojang: PSNA (Pressure Sensitive Nerve Areas) video review I just completed a quick review of one of the final instructional videos completed by Mangisursuro Mike Inay and produced by Abanico Video Productions in Germany. This tape is on PSNAs or Pressure Sensitive Nerve Areas. The syllabus is somewhat similar to another that some may be familiar with, PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics). PSNAs might also be thought of as vital points. Areas of the body that produce pain, motor muscle dysfunction, or mental stunning when attacked with finger pressure, finger/thumb jabs, or more forceful punches/kicks. Mike Inay's PSNA program is highly effective and has been used by law enforcement and security personnel around the USA. The PSNA Instructor Certification course, usually taught over two highly intensive days, is designed to utilize these nerve areas to disable or control an aggressive individual without causing serious bodily injury. Originally developed for law enforcement, this training has been employed by many police departments throughout the US and has proven to be a highly effective tool for subject control. PSNA is excellent for individuals seeking alternative control techniques designed to minimize damage or injury to a person. This highly polished 52 min. video provides detailed information necessary for the motivated student to grasp an understanding of 14 different PSNAs and how/when to employ them effectively. Live models are used to demo the PSNAs and a number of detailed anatomical pictures show the exact location and name of these nerves or nerve groupings. A brief history of PSNAs is provided followed by an easy to understand description of how/why PSNAs work. 14 PSNAs are identified/located with information on what type of pressure is required and the direction of the pressure needed to maximize the discomfort to the subject. As a Certified PSNA Instructor and as an individual that had the opportunity to assist the late Mike Inay instruct PSNA courses, I can certify the completeness and accuracy of this material. Of course, part of the 'enjoyment' of learning this material is having these PSNAs activated on your own body. Only then may one truly appreciate the effectiveness of this course of instruction. Although the studios of Abanico obviously contain state-of-the-art video production equipment, I'm not sure it is yet possible to hook the viewer up to the VCR so that they may fully appreciate this video. Dieter, perhaps you can work on that... :) Interested in broadening your training to include vitalpoints/PPCT/PSNA knowledge? Check out this video. For information on how to obtain this video, contact Suro Jason Inay at jdinay@hotmail.com, check out the Abanico website at http://www.abanico.de, or contact Dieter Knuttel at dk@abanico.de. Available in PAL and NTSC. Ray "I make nothing off this" Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Meteor2000@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:57:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #788 In a message dated 12/20/00 9:50:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:21:00 PST Subject: the_dojang: more Hank > I took the liberty of forwarding your post to Master Hank Murphy his e-mail > is <> his website is > <> > He wrote a total of 7 books from 1973-1981on Korean old style's as well as > Sip Pal Ki and Yu Sul he was a writer for several Taekwondo magazines. > Currently he is teaching classes Rowland Heights, CA. Great! Thanks for that info. Are you affiliated with Master Murphy? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >> Yes Ray, I'm affiliated with him. I was informed by his son that the book your waiting for, has three versions the first had been printed in 1974 and has a Yellow cover, the second printed in 1977 had a Red cover. The last one was printed by Paladin Press in 1980 has a Silver/Red cover and it has some typo errors. In any case it was used for beginners. His book the Way of Tang Soo is a really nice book. MG ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:41:19 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #791 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.