From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #794 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 22 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 794 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Dan Bong Video the_dojang: CULTS the_dojang: Re: Bruce Sims the_dojang: Re: Kickboxing the_dojang: Re: Boxing VS Martial Artist the_dojang: Re: Working out during the holidays the_dojang: fighting et al the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #793 the_dojang: Re: UTI / Dan Bong forms the_dojang: Re: Boxing to Kick Boxing the_dojang: Re: bouffaint the_dojang: Re: Dakin, can you keep hairstyles to a minimum ? the_dojang: Fluffy Kappo the_dojang: Boxing vs MA the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:28:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Dan Bong Video Dear Ray et al: The dan bong (short stick) is an integral part of the weapons material for Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido and is routinely used in many Hapkido schools and organizations. GM Myung (World Hapkido Federation) has both a video and book out on the dan bong though perhaps as of this writing the book may no longer be available. There is a single dan bong form presented on the video tape and a wide variety of applications. You can get the information for ordering the tape from just about any copy of TKD-TIMES. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims ------------------------------ From: Message-ID: <5f.e9ca342.27751449@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:32:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: CULTS Tae Yun Kim's concepts and presentation of her "martial art" may or may not be cult like, but they are not vary "martial" (Military or Combative) either. It's mostly "New Age" and "empowerment" mumbo-jumbo. Not regarding Ms. Kim, but in general, we should be careful about bashing "cults." Remember that the world's established, powerful and respected religions fit the definition of a "Cult" quite precisely - especially in their early years when many died willingly for their faith or conviction. Many "faithful" were then, and are now still willing to commit mass murder in the name of their religion, too. Think of the Balkans, Think of Chechnya, think of Islamic Jihad (Holy War) and I think you will get the picture. Are Christianity, Islam or Judaism "Cults?" Perhaps, so. The only difference is that these religions have been around long enough that their outrageous ideas have become accepted by many. ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:38:21 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Bruce Sims >>I have a pretty good idea thatI am Real. >>Best Wishes, >>Bruce W(ith tongue planted firmly in cheek) Sims Yes, but who signed your certificate saying you are Real? :-) Alain ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:40:22 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kickboxing In a message dated 12/22/00 7:53:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << If you wanted to go in the ring, then you would have go on your own to find a real kickboxing school. And it's not easy to find a real kickboxing school. >> Really ? In our small town we have 2 of them ... both excellent. Kathy Long trained a few miles up the road from us in a small town ... they have quite a few down the hill from us ... I guess it just depends on the area and if it is popular where you live. Here it is popular. One guy who trains them is an ex-golden gloves champ when he was younger. And he is a 5th degree in Jiujitsu now. They compete alot in Vegas and around there. Muay Thai kickboxing is big out here. Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:45:08 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Boxing VS Martial Artist In a message dated 12/22/00 7:53:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Real karate will get you killed in the ring. As I said before, you have to unlearn those traditional moves. It's sad that so many martial artists live in fantasy land about boxing and kickboxing. >> Just depends on the rules in the ring. If the rules are only geared for the boxer ... yes, I will agree with you ... but if it is geared towards the martial artist ... then no. UFC and all the others out there like that have proven that. A ground guy will take a boxer to the ground ... a kicker will keep kicking the shins/thighs till he goes down ... staying out of reach of his hands/arms (moving around ... and yes, some martial artists can move around). To make a blanket statement about any one particular style of fighting over another one like this is ........................... silly. It is thee ol' "my style is better than your style" thing again. Depends on the circumstances, environment, who the fighters are, etc. So much to consider. Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:48:05 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Working out during the holidays In a message dated 12/22/00 7:53:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << > And it's not easy to find a real kickboxing school. > ... > Real karate will get you killed in the ring. Geezzz... Real kickboxing, real karate, real TKD... I hope what I'm doing is real and not fake... :) >> LOL ! Yes, what is real to another may not be real to you ... and so on. LOL! On to another subject ..................................... How many of you are not interrupting your training this year just because it is the holidays? Have the schools you are going to been full, half empty, or just shut down for the holidays? What do you do if your school is shut down and you want to work out really bad ? Do you go to a friend's house and workout with them ? Illona ------------------------------ From: TNTcombatives@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:33:13 EST Subject: the_dojang: fighting et al Christmas greetings to you all, There has been a lot of talk here regarding 'real fighting'. Some of you seem to be on the right track, and some of you seem to be missing the point and turning it into a martial arts suck/are the best war. We practice everyday (right?) kicking, punching, throwing and joint locking. All the moves are done in the dojang against willing participants who know the moves, and, most of the time, are able to adapt to them to avoid serious injury. This is a good thing. It allows practice of technique that WILL work in fights, but in many cases, important elements are left out. I have been in a number of fights. Grade school rockem-sockems, high school idiot contests, scraps in bars, and now, in law enforcement situations. When I was a lowly greenbelt in karate in 7th grade, I got my lights punched out by a boxer. I learned boxing. In high school, got embarrased in a stand up clinch. I learned Jujitsu. I have been in 1 on 1, 2 on 1, 3 on 1, and a group punchfest. I have been face to face and ambushed. I have avoided 20 times more than I have been in. In all the fights, well, except one, I was not the one who started the fight...hey, whiskey does that. The important thing to know is that fights do not start as the first punch is thrown. The fight starts before that, when one of the participants starts to think about bashing the other. Very few dojang practice the 'lead-up' to the fight, verbal de-escalation, stress control etc. Very few practice fighting without a list of rules, or practice in a nice clean, open, well lit area. I have read on this list, people who believe that you will react how you have been trained...for the most part yes, that is correct. If you have trained in pre-fight indicators, verbal & physical cues, de-escalation, avoidance, fear control, and cut-to-the-chase-full-contact-as real as possible-fights....then kudos to you...you should react how you have been trained. If you only practice non-contact, or rules-sparring, you might be suprised with the violent dynamics of a real encounter. Suprise is bad. You CANNOT be suprised in a real fight. Suprises: Getting hit bare fist to bare face, kick to the gonads(ouch), sudden fear, freeze-up, attackers bad breath, their weird skill/strengh, ineffective punches/kicks, etc...the list can go on. Now, if you don't practice this, but only do regular sparring, one-steps etc. you can still be ok! The skills you know are VERY effective, some more than others, but nonetheless effective. A well placed side kick, or throw does wonders. All the stuff we practice was designed for use against humans, so there is a good chance that if you are fighting a human, it will work...although, I have bumped into some Meth-heads that did not seem very human. Many times, we miss the pre-fight indicators. That means we are not mentally prepared for the fight...but the other guy is...playing catch-up in a fight is not good...but we have advanced martial training to help us close that reactionary gap, so that our hard earned skills can be effective. If you train right, you will react properly to the threat, and apply your training. A while back, I wrote in regarding a young girl who was getting her Blackbelt at a fellow instructors school. He asked me to work on her 'fighting' ability before the test. Young, fit, strong, fast, smart, 6 years mixed MA/TKD training....yet she failed when faced with a basic scenario. She was suprised by the aggression, fear and anger, and was unable to apply her training. She threw unbalanced kicks and a great non-contact palm to my face, and was easily taken down the first time out. Not to say that everyone reacts the same, but there are things here we can learn from. It took 2 sessions with her before she was able to bash and crash and kick my a**. She had all the technique training needed, but just needed a small dose of reality to give her the edge. On test day, she beat the tar outta me, and when I lost my headgear due to a wonderful 'head & arm' throw, (like Alain says he likes...you all have read his book, RIGHT?!)she ended up kicking and punching me in my uncovered head...hard. It hurt, but she had learned good lessons. I train fellow Law Enforcement(LE) officers in defensive tactics/combatives. There are a number of LE defensive tactics systems out there that try for the fancy techniques & use unrealistic methods to control threats. In almost every class, I have instructors from these systems, unable to apply basic control during scenario situations. Once they get a bit of training, they are then able to apply some of those skills. Again, someone failed to mention to the student or test them in a realistic situation...they were suprised by what they encountered. I love sparring. I love forms (even have some big trophies!). I practice the arts knowing that what I'm doing may save my life some day...it probably already has. Sparring is one thing, fighting is another. Know the difference, and you will be just fine. Train hard, train right, Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:53:44 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #793 In a message dated 12/22/00 11:30:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << you missed my post from a few day ago. I looked through the yellow pages for San Antonio, found 75 martial art school and only one boxing school. >> Then you will have to search further away and go to a boxing camp then ? Or find one that has a dorm in it and stay awhile ? Just trying to be helpful. Illona ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 21:05:01 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: UTI / Dan Bong forms > From what I understand, grandmaster Karel van Orsouw founded the UTI in > 1993 after some political problems with the NTA (Nedelandse Taekwondo > Associatie) of which he was co-founder. > The UTI currently has clubs in Holland, England, Germany and Belgium (if > I am correct). > > This is very local (only a small part of europe), but is there anyone > who can confirm this or even explain a bit more? You are right. I met Master van Orsouw in 1992 or so when he was still in the NTA. Then he formed his organisation. I don`t know what kind of problems was there. I believe in the U.K. there are two groups affiliated to the UTI, namely the United Taekwondo Association of Wales (UTAW) and the United Taekwondo Association of England (UTAE). There is (or was) also a group in Ireland affiliated, and I even saw their website once (but don`t remember the URL). I don`t know about Germany. > Second question: The UTI practises two dan-bong (short stick with rope. > Stick is adjusted to size of the one who uses it) forms. They have > developed these forms themselves, but I would like to know if there are > other affiliations that have these kind of forms as well? I saw one of these forms durin the NTA tournament after the split with Master Orsouw, so I think the patterns are still practiced there as well. > These dan bong forms sound interesting. Are there mpegs of them anywhere > on the web? > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com I never saw them on the web, but I have one recorded in PAL VHS. If somebody is interested, contact me privately. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 21:08:49 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Boxing to Kick Boxing > don't forget Troy Dorsey. > gary pieratt Yeah, a great guy. He also had a background in traditional martial arts. Just like Iwona Guzowska I mentioned, who started in ITF Taekwondo, gained 1st Dan, switched over to GTF, became Polish Champion, then to Kick Boxing, winning several WAKO international championships, and now pursuing her succesful pro boxing career. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:01:33 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: bouffaint In a message dated 12/22/00 11:30:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I've always understood bouffaint to be a type of hairstyle, but checking in the dictionary I find "bouffant" to mean "puffed out; full; said of a skirt." So what I guess I meant was "big hair" or a hairdo that relies on hair spray to maintain its position. Sorry about the confusion. >> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ! I was wondering what was "big" about her !!! She is soooo small ! LOL ! Thank you for the clarification .... :-) Illona ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:14:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dakin, can you keep hairstyles to a minimum ? Dakin commented on a certain word's meaning, re: Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:29:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: bouffaint THE QUESTION WAS: I have a question ... what is "bouffaint" ? THE ANSWER: I've always understood bouffaint to be a type of hairstyle, but checking in the dictionary I find "bouffant" to mean "puffed out; full; said of a skirt." So what I guess I meant was "big hair" or a hairdo that relies on hair spray to maintain its position. Sorry about the confusion. Just when you think you know your own language... I guess I never connect big hair with working out. Just my personal bias. Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu> Response: Dakin, this is a martial arts forum and my computer is soooo slow. I would appreciate it if you could provide comments that reflect martial arts and not a discource on hairstyles. After all, my time is as important as your time, even though u work in an Ivory Tower ? (stated with tonque in check, and "got ya" attitude !) McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:18:48 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Fluffy Kappo >All they have to do is: 1) keep you under them and 2) keep from getting hurt. Now, these seem generally hard to do, and it involves a lot of detailed positioning work.< Being the holidays, I had a few extra hours this weekend, so I thought I would just move the house. Couple of permits some jacks & lumber. Add tractor and the job was done! Sometimes the language used does not adequately describe the job undertaken.:) Getting in the Way, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:55:22 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Boxing vs MA Dear Martin Price, >You can be a black belt or a professional boxer, but without the will and >knowledge to actually hurt someone else you could wind up getting the daylights beaten out of you or worse.< To develop Martial skill, you will pay a certain price in injury to effort. As skilled as some Black Belts are, please do not confuse Black Belt with professional fighter. I am an avid Martial Arts practitionaire, but a professional, contact, ring advanced boxer is a horse of a different color as are Professional Kickboxers and Professional NHB fighters. You might try to avaid the up-drafts of air expended by the non-professionals of each classification debating which is tougher. Getting in the Way Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:11:33 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #794 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.