From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #799 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 27 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 799 In this issue: the_dojang: Mature the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #798 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #798 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #798 the_dojang: Re: Older Students the_dojang: What is Yudo? the_dojang: Re:Korean Language Resources the_dojang: Re: greybeards the_dojang: Re: PSNA the_dojang: Guhapdo seminar the_dojang: Re: Working out during the holidays the_dojang: RE: Origins of the Species the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #798 the_dojang: RE: Family Tree (are you there Dakin?) the_dojang: Re: Hwarangdo & Hapkido Origins the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #798 the_dojang: AOL 6 and HTML, still... the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:43:35 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Mature Melinda writes: > i meet way too many "mature" folks who think they cant do martial arts. > personally, i think theyre watching too many m.a. movies with wire tricks :). > anyone can do martial arts and any martial arts instructor worth their salt > should be able to tailor a program to fit the student's abilities. > > melinda You are so right Melinda. Anyone CAN do martial arts if the Instructor has the ability to communicate and work with students who may have some things to overcome. Talking about overcoming. Check out my 63 year old (recently promoted to Black Belt) student scaling a twelve foot flat wall during our mandatory "Power Weekend" for Black Belt candidates. Although he (and I at age 60) may not have the flexibility, we both have the heart, and we do this every year (with a little help from our friends). You can find the picture in our "picture gallery" at Timmerman's martial art site http://www.nkmaa.ca. I put it there to encourage the younger students who need it, and we truly have a ball doing the challenge course. One thing I have learned over the past 50 years of practice, I never underestimate the (potential) abilities of a student (or opponent). Doing so just once with an opponent gave me a dimple (of the broken beer bottle kind) on my cheek that nature never adorned me with. With students, I never stop encouraging them to reach beyond the expectations often hung on them by aging or disability. Many of them do so beyond their wildest dreams. Don't you love it! Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:19:18 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #798 > From: "Len White" > Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 16:48:34 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #797 Flex-All 454 > > Wht is Flex-all 454? > Len White > > A muscle relaxant. Donna ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:37:00 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #798 In a message dated 12/26/00 6:33:17 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Wht is Flex-all 454? Len White >> It is an anointment which warms up the muscles and also relaxes them. You'll find it next to Ben Gay at the drug store or supermarket. I highly recommend it. Lot's of pro athletes use it. gary pieratt New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:35:41 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #798 In a message dated 12/26/00 4:32:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << sounds like you've been having fun! :)....and i've got something else for you to hang on the wall....going out today! i've been getting the dojang's finishing touches in place and it feels good. >> Melinda ! My poster is coming ? YES !!! I saved a spot for it too !!!! It will go perfect there ! Right by the parents section so they can read it every time they sit down ... PERFECT ! Thanks for taking the time out of your busy (and you haven't left yet?) life to send it ! Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:39:38 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Older Students In a message dated 12/26/00 4:32:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << i meet way too many "mature" folks who think they cant do martial arts. personally, i think theyre watching too many m.a. movies with wire tricks :). anyone can do martial arts and any martial arts instructor worth their salt should be able to tailor a program to fit the student's abilities. >> Most of my adults in my school are older adults ... in their late 30's, 40's and 50's. And yes, we have to tailor the program for alot of the ones that have a disability or challenge of some sort. They are either older (adults) or younger (kids) ... now I need more that are in the middle range (teens to early 20's) !!!! Anyone have any ways of advertising to attract them ? Illona ------------------------------ From: "David Salt" Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:58:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: What is Yudo? To the list: I stumbled upon the Korean MA style of Yudo. It's an interesting style according to what I saw on there website (the US Yudo Association). The website states that there is no attack, only defense, which would conform to the US legal doctrine of reasonable force (maybe some people on the list would like to comment on that one, for it's like saying other MA styles wouldnt conform to this legal doctrine). From what I saw on the website, Yudo is like Judo but with no competition and the emphises is on self defense. It's a style (correct me if I'm wrong) that the military developed. But is it a modern style of Judo? It also said on the website that art was lost when the Japanese occupied Korea and now it's being brought back. My question to the list are these: (1) How is Yudo different from in the self defense area of Judo? (2) Has Yudo been incorporated into any traditional MA styles or would it be considered to modern for that? (3) How does Yudo differ from the traditional art of Yool Sool? Thanks, David headbanger@mindspring.com PS: The US Yudo Association has a great website, check it out if you want, it gives a really good bio on the style. ------------------------------ From: "Daniel G." Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 03:04:56 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Korean Language Resources I'm currently going through a book/tape set called "Teach Yourself Korean: A Beginner's Guide", which I stumbled across in the library. I had tried some phrase book type stuff before without success. Now I can read & write in Hangul & can carry on some basic conversations that don't involve discussing how to inflict bodily harm. ;) ~Daniel >From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #783 >Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:49:56 -0500 (EST) > >------------------------------ > >From: bwoodard@mortonsalt.com >Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:06:11 -0600 >Subject: the_dojang: Korean Language Resources > >I would like to learn to speak Korean and write in Hangul. Due to time >constraints and location I will have to teach myself. Does anyone have any >suggestions text, tapes, or websites? > >Thanks, > >Brian > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 03:40:23 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: greybeards A few years back, when I first started my own school, I was still teaching at my instructor's school. I had been assisting three evenings a week for my instructor, and added 2 classes to each of the other weekday evenings and two on Saturday. After the first couple of weeks my 40 yr old body felt pretty sore. (The first week seemed indescribably brutal.) I went to my instructor, who was 20 years my senior and had been teaching 2-3 classes a day for years, what he did when he got sore. "Susungnim, what do you do when you get sore?" "Ah, Foley sabum, I have something frien' gave me. You know, a couple of years ago when I painted building all day long? After, shoulder sore. So I ask frien' if he could help me. Come with me." Couple of years ago? He didn't get sore until he was 58?, I thought. Right. He led me into his office and had me sit down while he opened his desk drawer. I was sitting there, fully prepared for him handing me some ginseng/yak fat poultice or some other secret of martial art training. Reaching into his desk, he moved a beautiful ginseng root and felt around until his eyes lit up. He pulled his treasure from the drawer and held it up to my eyes. "Nuprin, " he said, "feel like young again." I fell off his chair. Rick Foley ------------------------------ From: Danny Abramovitch Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:11:09 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: PSNA A couple of items on this: 1) I had the pleasure of taking this course from Suro Mike Inay many moons ago (BC: Before Children). In fact, I took it with Ray and had the joy of feeling the PSNAs activated on my own body. 2) It is better to give than to receive. :-) Still, you learn more by receiving (in this case). 3) It was one of the truly great seminars that I have attended, well worth the time and cost. 4) I would not classify PSNAs as vital points. I might call them "practical vital points". While vital point instructors stress hitting these quarter sized spots around the meridians and producing incredible effects, PSNA instructors stress hitting areas that can be a couple of inches to a foot wide. The areas are easy to hit in fight situations and the effect is linked directly to the activation of nerve trunks/bundles. After the all this time off the mat, I probably could name a handful of vital points, but could probably activate 10 or 12 of the 14 PSNAs in the class without much effort. (Where is Ray when you need him?) 5) How to describe one of these: There is a strike at the neck which is largely safe but produces an amazing effect. Those of you with older computer monitors may know about pushing the "Degauss" button and seeing the image blink and reset with a vibration in it. That's pretty much what the brachial plexus strike feels like for your brain. - -- Danny ------------------------------ From: todd miller Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:22:30 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Guhapdo seminar I will be teaching a Chung Suk Guhapdo seminar on Jan 20th at my dojang in Dover, NH. Some of my students and I will be doing a demonstration of forms, fighting and test cutting after the seminar. If any one is interested please privately e-mail me for details. Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc. ------------------------------ From: "Jim Griffin" Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 08:26:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Working out during the holidays For what it's worth, last night (12/26) I taught both classes at your dojang (the scheduled instructor was sick). In the first class, it was me, my two kids and 3-4 others - we usually have around twenty in this class. In the second class - the senior class - it was just me, my son and another 1st gup. This class is usually a bit smaller - between 10 and 20 students. >From: MissIllona@aol.com >Subject: the_dojang: Re: Working out during the holidays * * * snip * * * >On to another subject ..................................... > >How many of you are not interrupting your training this year just because >it >is the holidays? Have the schools you are going to been full, half empty, >or >just shut down for the holidays? What do you do if your school is shut >down >and you want to work out really bad ? Do you go to a friend's house and >workout with them ? > >Illona _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 07:49:58 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Origins of the Species Dear Jose: I hope that you are hearing what people are saying about the history of Hapkido. It is, afterall still a work in progress. Modern Hapkido after the tradition of GM Ji is less than 40 years old and is still being shaped by the same forces that have effected the house of Ed Parker with his passing, and Harold Long with his passing. Add to this the terrible damage to cultural tradition caused by the Japanese occupation, the result of the natural decay of Korean tradition within the country and the steady influence of other cultures such as the Chinese over the centuries and western culture in the last 200 years and you have quite a puzzle to sort out. Despite the tendency of human beings to come up with some neat Readers' Digest explanation for things, the truth about how we come to have Hapkido in our midst will take some work. Whether defined as representative of Korean martial tradition overall, or specifying only that tradition associated with GM Ji, when it comes to studying the heritage of Hapkido we must be dilligent --- and very patient. God is not finished with us yet. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 07:52:46 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #798 Dear Rick: The name Myung, Jae Ok didn't ring any bells with me though I think I ran into the name of that art before. Is there any other information you can add to what you shared in your letter? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:26:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: RE: Family Tree (are you there Dakin?) Bruce posted a link to a "Hapkido Lineage Tree" - I have some comments later, but Dakin do you still have your tree up somewhere? Carsten Jorgensen hwarangdo@email.com Copenhagen, Denmark - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:38:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hwarangdo & Hapkido Origins Well this is probably as good a time as any to start posting again. For the people who has joined the_dojang the last couple of years: I'm not a spokesperson for Hwarang Do, I just know a lot about the history :-) Jose, Rick and Patrick posted on pretty much the same thing: Is Hwarang Do the same as Hapkido? And the answer is an emphatic "well ehhh..." because first you have to know what "Hapkido" is, and not many people do. Hope you can make some sence of my post: >I just read an interview in black belt magazine with Lee, >Joo-bang, head of Hwarangdo. He insists that he >learned Hwarangdo first. Later he studied with Hapkido founder >Choi, Young-Sool under who he attained Master's rank. Yes, that's right, but first of all, Choi, Yong-sul was not the founder of Hapkido, other people started using the name and it wasn't until very late that GM Choi also started to use the name! GM Choi taught Yawara, and this is what GM Joo Bang Lee learned from him. Second, and this is very important if you're trying to understand the history. There never was "A" style called Hapkido. Some people think that if just everybody get back in one organization we could get back to the original style as taught by GM Choi. But that's not what happened back then. A few people trained with GM Choi (I'm talking 1950'ies now), and some had previous experience. For instance Dr. Lee had trained under Suam Dosa, some had trained Ju Jutsu etc. Some trained under GM Choi for a long time and some for a short time. Then they went to another town and started teaching. They all used different names (none of which were Hapkido) and they all taught different things based on their experience. Then they had students, some left after a short time and they also started teaching.... In short, there never were one Hapkido style and there never will be. Third important issue, Hapkido is not one style today. Whenever somebody says "in Hapkido we do it like this..." everybody thinks about their own flavor of Hapkido. This doesn't seem very important, but it is as long as we use e-mail. For instance it means that it's almost impossible to discuss techniques. About five years ago I spent a month on a non-Korean MA list discussing "vibration" until we discovered by accident that we were talking about totally different things... If you train Taekwondo and haven never seen Shotokan (or Kyokushinkai for that matter) the discription would be as identical as Hwarang Do and Hapkido are to each other. Last problem (this post I'm sure :-) is creating lineages. Apart for the stuff above, one of the reasons why it seems so difficult to match all the Korean MA styles is you have to use two branches, not one (for some reason people always call this one branch Hapkido). One branch is the Hapkido styles as taught by GM Ji and his students (examples you can use to put styles in this branch includes "no forms", "doing 7 consecutive spinkicks" etc). And then you have the Kuk Sool Hwe branch founded by Dr. Lee (if your style have "at least three forms" etc). For instance "Kung Jung Moo Sul" was founded by students of the original KSH masters, so KJMS have the forms and several of the same sets of techniques as Hwarang Do and Kuk Sool Won... (notice I said "same sets of techniques" NOT "same techniques"). This also means that for somebody who trains for instance "Chon Tong Hapkido" - where the grandmaster is a student of Dr.Lee, many things in their "Hapkido style" are very similar to Hwarang Do whereas somebody from a GM Ji lineage would do the techniques differently. >Plus, this account doesn't square with what I have come to >understand about the history of martial arts in Korea. There was >very little surviving martial arts in Korea prior to the >introduction of Japanese Karate, and later Hapkido via >Daito-Ryu. Was there really a fully developed martial art, >complete with kicking and with joint locks similar to Hapkido, >predating all of this? Yes, of course, even today they train (different styles of) martial art in several Korean temples. Korea had martial art, just as pretty much all other countries in Asia (China, Japan, Indonesia, the Philipines, Laos, India, Thailand etc) did. Before I'm beeing flamed or you make me write long posts for hours I recommend reading the 3 interviews with GM Lee in Black Belt Magazine and/or http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd1.htm and http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm. But please read what Dr. Lee is saying, not what you think he's saying. Carsten Jorgensen hwarangdo@email.cok Copenhagen, Denmark - --- There is a bit of Korean martial arts history that I am torn about. If this has already been discussed, perhaps I can be referred to the appropriate issue of the digest. I just read an interview in black belt magazine with Lee, Joo-bang, head of Hwarangdo. He insists that he learned Hwarangdo first. Later he studied with Hapkido founder Choi, Young-Sool under who he attained Master's rank. He says that he subsequently left Hapkido because someone who had taken over the KHA was selling the rights to form a Kwan and rank to whomever could pay (who is this a swipe at?). So he returned to Hwarangdo and his previous Hwarangdo master. He insists that what he teaches today is not Hapkido but is Hwanrangdo, a separate and independent art that predated the introduction of Hapkido (or Daito-ryu) to Korea. While it may be influenced some by his Hapkido experience with the founder, it is 90% independent of Hapkido. The problem is, I don't know if I buy this. The techniques I see as examples of Hwarangdo look so much like Hapkido that it would be a stunning coincidence. Plus, this account doesn't square with what I have come to understand about the history of martial arts in Korea. There was very little surviving martial arts in Korea prior to the introduction of Japanese Karate, and later Hapkido via Daito-Ryu. Was there really a fully developed martial art, complete with kicking and with joint locks similar to Hapkido, predating all of this? I do not mean to be disrespectful, but other's have told me that the heads of Hwarangdo, and also Kuk Sool won, were actually Hapkido masters who just gave Hapkido a different name and perhaps a different twist and founded on new system based on this. I would appreciate any clarity from historians of Korean martial arts on this matter. Also, has Dr Kim historian and Hapkido master) ever expressed an opinion on this? Jose' - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: JBoorstein@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:53:35 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #798 I like Dumpling Warriors, but I coined Geezer-Do to cover the, uh, mature student. JB ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 9:53:09 PST Subject: the_dojang: AOL 6 and HTML, still... Some folks are still using AOL 6.0 and sending HTML to the list. Sorry, that wll not work. Try backing up a version until AOL corrects that bug. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 9:55:06 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #799 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.